Myth Busting.....

[Tony B]

Acack, your into economics. The US had a economy working at full stretch. full employment, full production buoyant home economy. The European economies especially the British Empire were paying for it, including a lot of US costs. A stated war aim was the break up, or bankruptcy or the European Empires, including Dutch and French territories in the Pacific and the real money/powerhouse British India. Comes a nasty outbreak of peace. Europe is in ruins, civil structures ruined. British India with internal political problems. The old Imperial powers Britain, the Netherland's and France barely able to maintain their home territory's, let alone overseas possessions. The US had the problem of winding down and what would now be called a 'Soft Landing' for an economy winding down from war production, and having to re intigrate all the demobilised troops. therefore the Marshall Plan, economic help and development for Europe, 'Loans' at 'low intrest' in return access to foreign markets. One immediate result was the selling off of many vehicles at a fraction of production price. European manufactures couldn't compete in quantity or cost, the result was a dependency on US sources, and as the old saying goes'there's no such thing as a free lunch'.

[ackack]

Also very few of the surplus vehicles available were actually sold off to the public in this country. We have all read long catalogue lists of auction disposals and seen photos of vehicle dumps with nice rows of trucks, but in reality most were junk and had a very limited civvy life. You paid your money and took a chance, with little spares available the best bet was to buy 2. It wasn't until the late fifties when decent more modern vehicles were sold off to the public. There were strong fears that the motor industry which had been quickly strengthened over the war years would be in ruin if everything was given away. Even engineering would suffer. Order books would still have to be kept fairly full for the economy to survive, after all we had to export in order to pay back billions of dollars loaned. Post war it was getting very fashionable and affordable for the ordinary man to own a car. Tons of material was sold/given to parts of Europe which had suffered many years of German occupation and to many other countries such as Africa and the poorer areas of the Commonwealth. Many foreign armed forces were now equiped with our surplus which was usually better than previously owned. Vast amounts were left in Europe because it just wasn't worth the cost of ferrying it back home especially to the USA and Canada. Tons of extremely useful material was buried or dumped at sea. There was so much ammunition stored that it could never be used up in peace time, it was really an embarrasment, which usually resulted in it being quietly buried or dumped in out of the way places such as tunnels, old mines. ( I believe there are tunnels in the Forest of Dean full of war surplus gear.)Scrap metal was in excess and not worth much money. Aluminium due to aircraft being scrapped by the hundreds found its way into car production, notably the Land Rover. Timber was extremely scarse and house building was slow, considering the thousands of homes requiring repair. The Army was very keen to start afresh with new designs of vehicles after learning much experience. Technological advances over 5/6 years would normally have taken nearer 20. Many servicable vehicles were kept on in the forces for another 10 years (on average and then possible rebuilt or refurbished for another long spell) but it wasn't long before a whole new range was available, the older equipment was then relagated to use by TA and training purposes. A fear of the USSR and another possible war meant an ever increasing struggle to keep up, production continued.

 

There were indeed thousands of vehicles that never actually made it into the war, notably the 4 Centurion prototypes that arrived in Germany in May 1945. Production was running at full tilt at the beginning of 1945, at a rate faster than we could ship it. Contracts were suddely halted though as soon as we realised that victory was in sight, we had in actual fact over produced as we had the facilities to do do so by then, this proved to be an expensive error.

Anti-aircraft equipment production was rapidly slowing up shortly after D-Day due to allied air superiority although the war was to continue in the far east. Maximum effort was being made to produce we couldn't risk being beaten back again.

Had the war been won at Dunkirk for instance then it would be most unlikely that anyone would own a WW2 vehicle now, its only because so many were actually built that the few ( in relation) that survive do.

[Joris]

This is a very interesting thread, keep them comming!

[Tony B]

The problems with British manufacturing was evident even pre war. The British military when it finally did get get the money to re arm couldn't get the steel. At One point armour plate was ordered from Skoda, for Royal Navy ships. The Great War was still be paid for as well.

[Degsy]

The haulage industry in this country only got back on its feet due to the war surplus trucks,whether there was a shortage of spares didn't really matter, it was easier and cheaper to simply run the vehicles into the ground and then replace them. I believe this is the reason for the comparative shortage of Brit/Canadian vehicles in preservation although of course our production was miniscule compared to American output. I am old enough to remember the immediate post war period and surplus vehicles were used for every possible purpose, every garage (and there were many thousands more than now) had a breakdown vehicle usually a 15cwt very often with a simple crane fitted, farmers used every type of vehicle. At Blackpool bren carriers and Bedford QLs were used to carry people into the sea to load them on to boats for the traditional trip round the bay, at any one time there were dozens in use , because of the attrition rate many hundreds must have been scrapped.

[paul connor]

The usual " I know some tunnels that have been filled since the war that contain

Jeeps in crates-motorbikes or Churchill tanks etc"

 

that dont exist or would have been buried etc

[N.O.S.]

Aluminium due to aircraft being scrapped by the hundreds found its way into car production, notably the Land Rover.

 

A bit more useless information -

 

My father had the job of flying some top brass down to an airfield south of Bristol at the end of the war. While he waited for them to return, he spent some hours watching a team at the end of the airfield literally chopping up Liberators (with a wire hawser wrapped around the fuselage and two Cat D8s pulling hard against each other :shake:) and then pushing the bits over a cliff to help break them up!

 

The guys told him they were salvaging only the engines and certain instruments, for return to the States.

 

Presumably these were planes deemed unsafe to fly back??

[Topdog]

My Dad handed in his weapons and was told shortly after that all inventories were being scrapped as the admin was too much.

By the way, I now have the D-Day landing maps and hope to get them copied this weekend.

[Jessie The Jeep]

.....Presumably these were planes deemed unsafe to fly back??

 

 

Any planes considered 'War Weary' were broken up in the UK or continent. Generally, it was the low hour airframes, or those considered in good condition which made the ferry trip home. Most had the same fate at either end of the flight. At Kingman, AZ, they had a crane with a 6100 lb blade which was used to chop up the aircraft into parts small enough to get in the smelter.

 

A guy in the model club I was in a few years ago was in the RAF in India, working on B-24's and Mustangs. At the end of the war, rather than leave the aircraft for the Indians, they drained the oil from the engines and ran them till they seized. On the B-24's, they parked them in the revetment banks, tied a tanker to each main leg and pulled the legs apart so the plane fell and broke the mainspar on the revetment banks. The P-51's were immobilised with several sledge hammers!!!!!

 

If only I had a time machine.

 

Steve

[ashley]

Fantastic thread :tup: :tup:,

i belive that i heard once, that when the Ford motor company began making Jeeps etc it was on the proviso that once they left the country they would not be returned (and flood the forseen post war market boom with second hand ) when in reality they could buy new.

 

The price at which old H.Ford could produce new was in reality cheaper than shipping back the surplus from Europe.

 

This is why thousands of thousands of vehicleswere pratically given to the European countries ravaged by the war, but as far as i know none of these were given to Britian :dunno:

 

Ashley

 

In modern conflicts a majority of vehicles equiptment is left for the new `policing forces` of the country

[Tony B]

The haulage industry in this country only got back on its feet due to the war surplus trucks,whether there was a shortage of spares didn't really matter, it was easier and cheaper to simply run the vehicles into the ground and then replace them. I believe this is the reason for the comparative shortage of Brit/Canadian vehicles in preservation although of course our production was miniscule compared to American output. I am old enough to remember the immediate post war period and surplus vehicles were used for every possible purpose, every garage (and there were many thousands more than now) had a breakdown vehicle usually a 15cwt very often with a simple crane fitted, farmers used every type of vehicle. At Blackpool bren carriers and Bedford QLs were used to carry people into the sea to load them on to boats for the traditional trip round the bay, at any one time there were dozens in use , because of the attrition rate many hundreds must have been scrapped.

 

I remeber what seemed loike dozens of MWs and Oy plus Austin K3's in jersey as a kid all lined up by the harbour loading Jersey royal new Potatoes for export in wooden barrels. All the same battleship grey.

[Mark]

Another 'myth' of WW2 is that the USA had no idea that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbour. That dastardly attack was a complete surprise - I think not! And what 'luck' that all the US Navy Carriers, that were essential to operations in the Pacific, just happened to be out at sea at the time!

 

It's an interesting thought, how things might have been if the US Navy had intercepted and sunk the Japanese Carriers on the way to Pearl Harbour. US public opinion might have accused their own side of starting an unnecessary war and blamed the military for attacking a poor defenseless Japanese Navy 'just out on manoeuvres' in international waters.

 

As it happened the 'surprise' attack was so shocking that US was able to join the war on the Allies side - for which GB must be truly thankfull, as without them we would never had won WW2

 

 

America entering the war was a forgone conclusion. The U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands had already agreed that all three nations would go to war against Japan if the Japanese entered Thailand — which they did a week before Pearl Harbor. So the U.S. was already committed to war (without the knowledge of Congress or the American people) a week before Pearl Harbor.

Roosevelt then told his cabinet that they had to get the Japanese to fire the first shot.

 

Pearl Harbour.

 

[woa2]

The usual " I know some tunnels that have been filled since the war that contain

Jeeps in crates-motorbikes or Churchill tanks etc"

 

that dont exist or would have been buried etc

 

A story I beleive is true, is that a great deal of American Airborne equipment was buried in trenches and covered over to dispose of it during the war. This info came from a man who was a Policeman during WW2 and was at Aldermaston where the 101 AB left from (he 'acquired' a pair of boots at the time). The area he mentioned is now the AWE and there is no chance of getting in there, let alone digging.

[LeeEnfield]

By the way, I now have the D-Day landing maps and hope to get them copied this weekend.

 

 

David,

I'd be interested in copies of the British beaches, maps, if possible.

(that is Gold and Sword)

 

Pm me with cost's etc.

 

Cheers.

 

Andy

[antarmike]

It is definitely no myth that equipment was buried by the departing Americans. A work associate of mine ( a John Oakley) was an Aircraft fitter at RAfFBovingdon, near Hemel Hempsted. He saw Equipment (including Jeeps being buried in Primrose wood at the end of the runway. When a siutable time had elapsed he went digging. He never found a jeep but all his hand tools, spanners etc he was using had been dug out of the ground at that location,

[Rick W]

It is definitely no myth that equipment was buried by the departing Americans. A work associate of mine ( a John Oakley) was an Aircraft fitter at RAfFBovingdon, near Hemel Hempsted. He saw Equipment (including Jeeps being buried in Primrose wood at the end of the runway. When a siutable time had elapsed he went digging. He never found a jeep but all his hand tools, spanners etc he was using had been dug out of the ground at that location,

 

 

Whereabouts was RAF Bovingdon at Hemel? I wasnt aware there was one?

[Jessie The Jeep]

RAF Bovingdon is very near to Berkhamstead, which is near Hemel. Here's a couple of pics from a fly over I did a few years ago. I believe there's a prison or youth custody centre on the old tech site.

 

During WW2, the USAAF used the base as a Combat Crew Replacement Centre where new crews were given theatre indoctrination.

 

'633 Squadron', 'Mosquito Squadron' and 'The War Lover' ( B-17's ) with Steve McQueen were all filmed there

 

Steve

[Bazz]

 

 

David,

 

I'd love The Brit ones, part of my display to show where 13/18H went ashore with their DDs

 

Baz.

[N.O.S.]

It is definitely no myth that equipment was buried by the departing Americans.

 

I worked with a chap who, as a bulldozer driver in the Royal Engineers, had the job of digging the holes at a US airfield and pushing in all the "stuff", which he claimed included jeeps (but who knows about the jeeps.......)

 

I used my drill rig to locate and recover items from a tip near a US airbase, the "informant" was only 12 at the time and got it pretty spot on! Unfortunately the dump appeared to have been burned as it was tipped and the only stuff we found was crockery and partially melted cutlery right on the edge, and a radio case. We were so disappointed.

[Richard Farrant]

It is definitely no myth that equipment was buried by the departing Americans.

 

The site of one of the Advanced Landing Grounds used by USAAF Thunderbolts was near to where I once worked and a chap who lived near to it during the war, used to go metal detecting over it. One day he came in all excited as they had come across some metal boxes buried. After research I found them to be part of a radio set up used by the US Forces to warn of incoming enemy aircraft. All the lettering was intact on some, including OD paint. I found that they were mounted under the instrument panel in Jeep, Dodge, GMC, etc. Through contact with a guy in the States, who helped to identify them, he had one to fit his Dodge WC. What a bit of history, to know it was used in the run up to D-day.

 

When the landings took place in Normandy, the Thunderbolts moved over there to use Advanced Landing Grounds nearer to their targets. It seems all the equipment was stripped from the vehicles over here and buried as these boxes had been dismantled and buried in a trench. I never did find out what else had been located.

[AlienFTM]

Myth:

 

The German Army of WW2 was the world's first totally-mechanised Army.

 

Fact: I cannot remember which work I read which claimed that at the height of Wehrmacht mechanisation in 1943, some 50% of units still used horses (consider the Falaise Pocket, where horses died in vast numbers trying to escape the onslaught).

 

Fact: By September 1939 the Royal Armoured Corps was 100% mechanised. 15/19H (my own and Baz's forebears) and 13/18H (with whom they merged in 1992 to become the Light Dragoons) ditched their last horses immediately before the BEF set sail and spent the Sitzkrieg learning how to use tanks. See Allan Mallinson, Light Dragoons.

[Tony B]

The British were the most mechanised army at the start of WW2. 2/3 of German military logistics were horse drawn. Another myth: hundreds of U boats threatned the Atlantic convoys. The best Donitz could get operational was 18.

[Jessie The Jeep]

OK, here's another myth.

 

"The B-17 Fortress could only carry the same bomb load as the DH Mosquito; 4,000 lbs."

 

This probably came about as a result of a typical Fort bomb load being between 5-8,000 lbs, although several factors were involved in its payload. The actual maximum load was 17,600 lbs, as the B-17 had fittings built in for external bomb racks, but this was rarely carried.

 

The max load was generally reduced to carry more fuel for longer missions, as while the B-17 had a good range, a large amount of fuel was used assembling the massive formations and gaining altitude prior to a mission, where as British bombers at night, flew individually straight to the target along the planned route.

 

The main problem the B-17 faced was that it was a 1934 design. When introduced, the B-17 was well ahead of its time, in operation when the RAF was flying its twin engined Whitleys, Blenheims, Beauforts etc. It was faster than all US fighters of the time. It was also initially designed with the specification of carrying a 2,000lbs load for coastal defense, not as a strategic bomber. By the time the US started its bomber operations in Europe, the B-17 was really out of date, 'though it performed well in the circumstances as fighter technology had advanced so much.

 

Ironically the B-17, using its external racks, was the only bomber in Europe capable of carrying the British designed 4,500 lb 'Disney' Rocket Bomb, which was too large to be carried in the bomb bays of British bombers!

 

The Fortress is often compared with the Lancaster, some six years its junior. Due to combat/war experiences, there had been a huge leap in aircraft development during that time. The Lancaster had the benefit of technological advances, and more powerful engines, so a direct comparison isn't realistic, 'though they performed similar tasks. The Fortress airframe couldn't be usefully developed further than the B-17G model, but there was no need, as the new Boeing B-29 came along about 18 months after the Lancaster, and far outclassed the Lanc's range and payload.

 

The B-29 Superfortress would have probably been deployed in Europe if the D-Day landings and current European air power hadn't been overwhelming 'Fortress Europe'. The Superfortresses made their mark in the vast Pacific theatre where their combat range of over 3,000 miles was needed. Some Superfortresses were modified to carry two 22,000 lb Grand Slam bombs.

 

 

So, while the B-17's typical load was not as heavy as its RAF counterparts, it is not true that the B-17 could only carry the same as a Mosquito.

 

Steve

[Jack]

Great information Steve - learnt shed loads!

[AlienFTM]

The Fortress is often compared with the Lancaster, some six years its junior. Due to combat/war experiences, there had been a huge leap in aircraft development during that time. The Lancaster had the benefit of technological advances, and more powerful engines, so a direct comparison isn't realistic

 

I once read (about 30 years ago) that it took 20 years in peacetime to learn what took six months in wartime.

 

The B-29 Superfortress would have probably been deployed in Europe if the D-Day landings and current European air power hadn't been overwhelming 'Fortress Europe'. The Superfortresses made their mark in the vast Pacific theatre where their combat range of over 3,000 miles was needed. Some Superfortresses were modified to carry two 22,000 lb Grand Slam bombs.

 

Wow. I never knew that.