Weekend Nazis-BBC1 on Monday

[Mark]

WOW!!!

[Marmite!!]

One thing I did agree with in the documentary was against the branding of English coins. I think that is disgusting and I am sure it is against the law as was he.

 

 

Yep it's illegal to deface a coin of the realm in any way...

[Snapper]

Yep it's illegal to deface a coin of the realm in any way...

 

 

Agreed. How do we know they didn't give him the flipping coins??? He was actually making ID tags; but he was sammied. Never give a sucker an even break. Journalists rule number one. I know I've worked with them since 1975.

[Bodge Deep]

Well I didn't see the guy stamping the coins but my friend did...

He was stood waiting for me to catch up with him when this voice behind him said (in a foreign accent which he took to be German)

"would you like a free momento of the show?"

Frankly surprised that there was anything going free at W&P he agreed

"have you got a coin?"

My mate passed over a 50p which was returned to him moments later with the SS runes on one side and the tiny eagle and swastika on the other (neatly stamped on the queens face...

 

He wasn't best pleased and when he showed it to me as we walked along i was shocked to say the least... by the time we'd walked a few yards my mate was good and mad and ready to punch the guy...

but he didn't... :whistle:

 

As Larry said, in a historical context 3rd Reich insignia has its place

but not on coffe mugs and golf umbrellas and tshirts...For F**ks Sake!

I glanced at that stall (or should i say one of those stalls) & thought "who the hell would want any of that sh1t and walked on...

As for the trolley... i must've walked passed it a dozen times and just not seen it... not something i would ever want to own... or sell, if i did own it, for that matter...

 

& just for balance I have met loads of german reenactors who are okay and nice people... however I've also met at least 3 (one of whom is well known on the WWII forum) who were absolute a*seholes and clearly more than just " reenactors...

 

On the downside though i think its going to make it very difficult for German groups now as every right wing loon is now going to rush out to SOF grab himself an SS uniform and expect to be welcomed with open when they try and join a group...

 

[Degsy]

As journalists have always said 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story'

[Jonny666]

the program i thought was "throw a bucket of paint up in the air and those who get covered are to blame". complete and total rubbish.

 

yes ok the SS are known for the war crimes and things that they did againest the civilian poplulation and the jews, but they were a fighting force worth remembering.

 

so saying that the re-enactors who play the SS are all evil nazi's in there day to day lives and politics. but does that mean that everyone who plays the russians are german hating communists? you cant say yes or no to that fact some people maybe communists etc but what does it matter people are people and i thought we were allowed have freedom of speech and think for ourselves after all thats what makes us human aint it??

 

ok some of you dont like dressing in uniform, fair enough i dress in uniform to match my vehicle and if i am attending 1940's events i have a british uniform i wear. but if wearing the uniform of a nation be it whatever makes you "follow" that thinking thats stupid, i collect russian weapons does that make me communist? No! I have some german ammo and a hitler youth knief does that make my a nazi? Does it hell! i have british weapons and equipment and yes i am british but you got to remember that britian used almost every people we ever took over for our own gain, but yet as soon someone wears a german uniform they are evil hitler lovers, i think everyone needs to look back into themselves before they accuse anyone else.

[rambo1969]

The rules at W+P state that the wearing of nazi insignia is not allowed. Perhaps if Rex enforced the rules the program may not have been made.

 

If you gather 50 000 people together you will get racists/drunks/drug takers/thiefs etc etc, they are a tiny minority but it is what the press will pick up on.

 

Now I may start something by saying the following, but it is what I belive so here goes.

The BBC and the goverment do not like the fact that the MV circuit is mainly white british and brand us all as racists. We know that it is not true, but since when do the BBC report fairly. Remember a couple of weeks ago when they filmed a program about the Queen and said she stormed out of an interview?, it was a complete lie and they had to say sorry.

 

It just shows you what sort of country we live in now, you cannot have an opinion about anything unless it is the same as the goverment.

 

I spoke to the german re enactors at the essex mvt show and they were very polite and knew thier subject very well, they told me loads about the german army that I did'nt know.

 

Even if there were not any nazi insignia or nazi stuff for sale at W+P, the bbc would still have made a program along the same lines. How many people know the difference between the nazi's and the german army?, very few.

[Snapper]

All valid comments in recent posts after my late night rant. Not much more to add - but feel free. It's a free country!! (currently).

[snowtracdave]

Whatever makes you think it is still a free country? Granted it may be free - er than many but it has not been free for many years now . In fact not since the time when the police worked for us and turned into an organisation working on behalf of (whichever) government of the day .

[Great War truck]

Gosh, this is a bit odd! We seem to mostly agree with each other!

 

Anyway, if no one got my Church of Scientology joke, take a look at this link of Sweeny interviewing a man from the Church of Scientology. It is rather interesting.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okKYSSRQodQ

 

Just goes to show BBC journalism at its best.

 

Having just watched it again with the volume down, Sweenys mannerisms are not too different from that of Hitler during his early speeches. Just a wild off the cough thought there.

 

On another point, a work collegue approached me today to ask me if I had seen the program. He then went on to say how worrying he found it. Not wanting to start an argument with him, i did not. I then asked what he proposed that the Government should do about it, ban the wearing of SS Unifroms perhaps? He thought about it then said no, but he thought that the SS reenactors should undertake history lessons on the subject which would probably make them not want to wear SS Uniforms anymore. Well there we go. It seems that the average man in the street has the answer. Look back to the past for the way to the future, it is what i have been saying all along. :whistle:

 

Tim (too)

[Tony B]

Tim, your talking about people whose knowledge of WW1 is Blackadder, and WW2 Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers. Prejudice is hatred without knowledge. I come from Jersey, so I have the knowledge to hate. But I work quite happily with Great War and WW2 Wermacht falljamer re-enactors. I don't blame the current generation, but I'm not going to forget history, otherwise you get the Balkans and Yugoslavia.

[saracenstump]

it seems to me that whatever the SBG would have said it would have been used against them,i in the past have been accused of glorifying war because i drive around in an MV but at the sight of a spitfire these people gaze in awe?

whatever we do you'll always offend someone, so i just get on with enjoying the hobby with likeminded others.

[No Signals]

so i just get on with enjoying the hobby with likeminded others.

 

I agree, only as long as the others have minds which I like.

 

Whatever the moral stance of allowing the right to say what you want or act things out, the fact is that some people do want to glorify and be associated with despicable acts. I will stand up and say I would support a ban. Some things are indefensible. The SS is one of them. There is plenty of scope for portraying the German army without the need to recreate/advertise/promote the SS. It is not something which can be done 'sympathetically', there was no human face to them. Some heads need to be removed from the sand.

 

(Got to state firmly this is not a swipe at saracenstump, not suggesting for a minute that he is any of this, this is a reference to the wider issue. I just saw his line as a relevant way in)

[ashley]

 

 

 

Having just watched it again with the volume down, Sweenys mannerisms are not too different from that of Hitler during his early speeches. Just a wild off the cough thought there.

 

 

 

Tim (too)

 

 

 

 

Tim and all,

just watched the clip and Sweeny Adolph impression very lifelike indeed.

 

Ashley

[Markheliops]

Whatever the moral stance of allowing the right to say what you want or act things out, the fact is that some people do want to glorify and be associated with despicable acts. I will stand up and say I would support a ban. Some things are indefensible. The SS is one of them. There is plenty of scope for portraying the German army without the need to recreate/advertise/promote the SS. It is not something which can be done 'sympathetically', there was no human face to them. Some heads need to be removed from the sand.

 

 

Disagree I'm afraid.

 

If you start banning the portrail of some military units - IE The SS - you will have to ban the majority of re-enactors.

 

I refer back to my original post in relation to the SS and I repeat it again.

 

The majority of ex SS soldiers feel ashamed about what went on in the war. The crimes committed were by a minority and I think it sad that all ex SS soldiers are tarred with the same brush.

 

The majority of these troops were combat hardened veterans who fought bravely for their country and fellow soldiers.

 

If you put the SS in Allied uniforms, they would have been hero's or classed as doing what had to be done.

 

I wonder if anyone knows the exact number of SS soldiers who were executed for failing to obey their orders to murder allied soldiers and civilians. There are well documented incidents where SS soldiers deliberately went against their orders in helping Jewish persons and Allied soldiers to escape to safety.

 

Undoubtedly, there were murderers and evil people within the ranks of the SS. There were also the same in the British, American and Russian Armies.

 

The Russians were well known for there brutality against civilians, men, women and children. But as they were part of the Allies, I suppose it's alright - IS IT REALLY.

 

And why does no one voice an opinion against the Croation / Serbian re-enactors. The crimes committed in Bosnia were just as horrific as those committed in other conflicts.

 

I for one feel ex SS soldiers should be given the same considerations as our own veterens.

 

They were all brave as hell, endured real misery and deserve our respect - whatever side they fought for, unless they as a person are identified as having committed atrocities, in which case, they deserve what they get.

 

One more thing to think about.

 

In those days, failing to obey any order meant certain death facing the firing squad. Do we have the right to condemn someone who was following orders. Unless we have been there and experienced it for ourselves, I feel we can not criticise those who have endured the misery.

 

Markheliops

 

 

 

 

[Snapper]

A brave response. I don't doubt for a minute that there were brave and noble men in the SS who did their patriotic duty and behaved like soldiers are supposed to in the eyes of the wider world. Sadly, the horrific nature of the SS's behaviour towards it's own rank and file, to POWs, to the Heer and masses of civilians will never help them. Perhaps the grim behaviour is a bit like we imagine a 1920s French Foreign Legionaire might understand and the pre WW2 British army was no place for softies. This must also be true of the pre-war small American army, barely mechanised doing frontier stuff just like a century before. They were hard men in hard times. The Japanese, who we see the odd soul kitted out in representation at W&P, were appalling to their own men - making them totally brutal towards their enemies. But it will always come back to the Nazis. The Heer, or Wehrmacht, committed war crimes, so did the Luftwaffe - but the SS will always bear the brunt. So they should. Maybe this is not considered fair in the face of a pan-German collective guilt imposed on them by fact, by their own post war assertion and by the victors. We know the victors committed war crimes. But the only people happy to dreg them up are the very same class of people anxious to capitalise on the work of the John Sweeneys of this world. I'm not saying he is bad - his clattering of Scientology appealed to my sensibilities 100% He goes for subversives. But whether there is comparison between a faith (sic) that claims human life was brought down by an alien race with all the mumbojumbo attached is a bit different from a crack at a predominantly harmless bunch of eccentrics is a moot point. Maybe we need more powerful lawyers like Tom Cruise and chums.

 

I agree totally about the Russians. Ordinary soldiers were flesh and blood, but when you think of the NKVD and the political officers driving men on to their deaths and treating liberated zones and people like criminals, it makes them no better. But they reacted to the scorched earth policy and rapine committed on them by the Nazis. There were beasts a plenty under the Swastika or Hammer and Sickle.

 

I repeat my view that we do not need to see a ban on German re-enactors or their regalia, Maybe John Sweeney thought that Rex Cadman and the senior management of W&P had a duty to educate the public about German war crimes. I thought that was what schools were for. The way the simple name of the event War & Peace was subverted by Sweeney from it's original IMPS days meaning to do more harm was an easy hit. But the show will survive. Vote with your feet - some of us don't go to W&P for a raft of reasons separate from people "dressing up" as General Von Klinkerhofen. Let the dust settle and see how the sometimes strange marriage between simple MV folk and re-enactors develops. I hope it continues to do so, But don't be complacent. "They" hate our guns, they hate our motors, they hate our devotion to a history which is white British in essence. We do not conform. "They" does not mean Labour or Tory or whatever. It means that cabal of influential people in our country who do not rest. They like easy targets and being associated with the evils of Nazism, however loosely - even accidentally is not a good place to be. Bullseye.

[Dougiebarder]

 

 

The majority of ex SS soldiers feel ashamed about what went on in the war. The crimes committed were by a minority and I think it sad that all ex SS soldiers are tarred with the same brush.

 

 

 

 

 

I have to wonder how ashamed they would have been if they had won?

[79x100]

Whether their apologists like it or not, the propganda systems then and now have ensured that SS uniforms and other symbols have become irretrievably linked with a political system and atrocities in support of that system.

 

Trying to ignore this and stating that they were simply soldiers is glorifying them and whether intended or not, is likely to minimise these atrocities.

 

I believe that anything which minimises what they did and the reasons for it will lead to a less clear understanding of history rather than the improved one that the ersatz SSers claim.

[Tony B]

Disagree I'm afraid.

 

If you start banning the portrail of some military units - IE The SS - you will have to ban the majority of re-enactors.

 

I refer back to my original post in relation to the SS and I repeat it again.

 

The majority of ex SS soldiers feel ashamed about what went on in the war. The crimes committed were by a minority and I think it sad that all ex SS soldiers are tarred with the same brush.

 

The majority of these troops were combat hardened veterans who fought bravely for their country and fellow soldiers.

 

If you put the SS in Allied uniforms, they would have been hero's or classed as doing what had to be done.

 

I wonder if anyone knows the exact number of SS soldiers who were executed for failing to obey their orders to murder allied soldiers and civilians. There are well documented incidents where SS soldiers deliberately went against their orders in helping Jewish persons and Allied soldiers to escape to safety.

 

Undoubtedly, there were murderers and evil people within the ranks of the SS. There were also the same in the British, American and Russian Armies.

 

The Russians were well known for there brutality against civilians, men, women and children. But as they were part of the Allies, I suppose it's alright - IS IT REALLY.

 

And why does no one voice an opinion against the Croation / Serbian re-enactors. The crimes committed in Bosnia were just as horrific as those committed in other conflicts.

 

I for one feel ex SS soldiers should be given the same considerations as our own veterens.

 

They were all brave as hell, endured real misery and deserve our respect - whatever side they fought for, unless they as a person are identified as having committed atrocities, in which case, they deserve what they get.

 

One more thing to think about.

 

In those days, failing to obey any order meant certain death facing the firing squad. Do we have the right to condemn someone who was following orders. Unless we have been there and experienced it for ourselves, I feel we can not criticise those who have endured the misery.

 

Markheliops

 

 

 

 

 

I have to say you are correct in some aspects. The majority of brutality was carried out against slave workers, mainly Russian, in the Channel islands were by the Organisation Todt, supposedly a 'Civilian' organisation. Many of the overseers were not ethnic German. However the Wermacht and other German military forces didn't interfere. whatever, the whole thing is a great very grey cloud. Trying to allocate guilt or innocence a slippery slope. The only real way to get any informed opinion is to go back to as many original source documents and study with an open mind. As soon as you listen to someone else or read a published book, you will get bias. Thats life.

[Marmite!!]

Read what other people think of the program... wii post al 60 coments but they will have to be in seperate posts

 

Time online...

 

I caught the tail end of the programme and it did seem to be making 'a mountain out of a molehill'. It struck me as slightly odd that a BBC reporter should be going around baiting the SS 'actors' with questions about war crimes! I thought that just about every conflict in history included atrocities and war crimes, usually committed by both sides. If re-enactments could only be carried out by sides that were innocent they would all have to be banned. I came across some saxons and vikings in the local park recentlt - don't they realise that the vikings went in for rape, pillage and desecration?

 

I'm sure there are far more sinister forces at work in this country that the BBC could more usefully investigate... maybe they should take a leaf out of the book of the Channel 4 programme Dispatches. Channel 4 seems less obsessed with political correctness.

 

Andrew brown, derby, uk

 

I agree with John Sweeny on most of his points. There was some good old truth bending by way of camera work and editing but he was being blatantly provocative for the sake of the camera I thought - and he was way too agressive interviewing others, no wonder people shied away.

 

I collect original Third Reich relics and was at the War & Peace show this year, and yes, some of the items for sale there were truly awful; Hitler tea mugs, concentration camp trolleys and SS Deaths Head brollys for the love of God...the people who buy these almost certainly will have some kind of sympathy with the politics of the TR. Sticking a TR symbol on an everyday object is just pathetic - no one with any historical knowledge would buy this tat.

 

Having an interest in military history does not mean you agree with right wing polices of 1930's Germany as a historian I am dissapointed that there were no intelligent reenactors interviewed to give a balanced view, they have hung themselves and I'm glad.

 

Jody Thomas, Bristol, UK

 

Isn't it interesting how reporters seem to always find the "odd ball" during their research and then make it look like the broad majority is like that? Don't quote the exception Mr. Sweeny but state the accurate truth, even when it is a lot less spectacular!

The Ocean may have a brown kelp leaf swim in it, but it is still blue!

 

S.W., Lexington, KY

 

The SS recreationists get uniforms designed by Hugo Boss, the mystique of Nordic beauty, and the mythos of paganism. The British recreationists get uniforms made of khaki-painted burlap, the mystique of a chipped enamel mug, and the mythos of Dad's Army.

 

Felix, Nottingham,

 

Dressing up in a British uniform will also suddenly make you a representative of an organisation responsible for atrocities and war crimes. It's a matter of perspective.

 

Adriaan, Johannesburg, South Africa

 

Sweeney: “Why is it impossible in England in the 21st century to answer my questions?”

 

Given the fact that the BBC is now part of the Labour's PC Thought Police, I would have thought the answer was obvious. Some people dress up in fancy dress for a bit of harmless fun, and get hounded by a self-styled "investigative journalist" on suspicion that they are not diverse enough or hold views which do not fit the prevailing multi-culti orthodoxy.

 

Call this a free country?

 

Daoud, Newport, UK

 

Saw the documentary last night. I think the issue of the motivation of re-enactors is largely superfluous. In a society where we value free speech, people should be allowed to have a view, however odius or unpalatable - and that includes the off-duty police officer (although there is clearly no place in the constabulary for nazi sympathisers, and if a membership connection with any group with racist sentiments can be shown he should be unceremoniously booted out of the force).

 

The interesting question is whether, next year, the organisers

of the W&P show will do a better job of policing the items on

sale - ie slap a ban on the sale of overtly nazi/racist material that, not only gives offence to most, but which is clearly in

contravention of recently passed laws on inciting racial conflict.

Regardless of the law, they could always slap a ban on the display of all swastikas with the exception of those on uniforms.

 

Over to you Beltring committee . . . .

 

NGB, Peterborough, Cambs

 

Having seen the programme yesterday I was not at all surprised at the reaction of the reenactors who were "interviewed". Someone they did not know put a camera in their faces and started trying to implicate them into being conspirators in the Fourth Reich. Hardly surprising that they were less than forthcoming when questions were put to them. The tone of the programme was infantile and tried to portray the reenactors as overgrown children playing at war or hardened neo nazis.

 

Reenacting is a hobby in the same way that fishing or tiddlywinks are hobbies - the reenactors have an interest in military history which they choose to take further than the armchair. Nothing harmful about that.

 

Tom , Cambridge, UK

 

I'm a German WWII reenactor in the US. Wehrmacht, not SS. Our group is a fairly large one and frequently holds reenactments, but the SS usually aren't invited. We try to represent what the average German soldier was like, who mostly were not Nazis but merely normal men just like the soldiers of the US or British Army. The fact of the matter is that the SS were not you're average soldiers, they were diehard Nazis. The SS groups in the area stress the fact that they aren't neo-Nazis and such, but one must ask the question "If you aren't a neo-Nazi, why are you impersonating the SS? Why not Wehrmacht or non-SS panzer divisions? Afrikakorps? Luftwaffe, or Kriegsmarine?" You have to ask yourself what the incentive is for these people.

 

Pat, Philadelphia, USA

 

The Waffen SS is a complex historical issue. There were divisions who were no more tham thugs in uniform. The SS Panzer divisions however were highly motivated through Nazi indoctrination and had excellent military training. It was primarily due to the efforts of I and II SS Panzer Corps that the Britis took so long to capture Caen and to break out of the Normandy bridgehead. Had Rommel and his successor, Von Klge not been constrained by Hitler's idioic orders the costs of the liberation of Europe might well have been far higher. Units of the Waffen SS including LAH and the Hitler Jugund (12th SS) divisions committed war crimes largely battlefield executions as at the Ardenne Abbey or at Malmedy but Allied troops may also have killed German POWs. Many of these crimes were however committed in the heat of battle and may perhaps be better understood in that contect. However, the SS also were guilty of crimes against civillians as at Oradour but there were certain factors behind these.

 

LUKE WILLEN, NOTTINGHAM, United Kingdom

 

I was at this event yesterday, and while most of the stalls are manned by people with nothing more sinister than an interest in history, there were defnitely shops with more questionable mechandise. If the organisers tried to "police the stalls" as they claim, how can they account for T-Shirts emblazoned with SS Logo's, and the infamous motto "Blut und Unhre" (Blood and Honor). I even spoted an umbrella emblazoned with Deaths Heads. I cannot see any possible, historical justification for such things, and if they were joke items, they were in extremely poor taste.

 

For me, this otherwise brilliant event was damaged by this Nazi edge. Having overheard numerous conversations between shop owners, I am without a doubt that there is something a lot less inocent than the "thrill of the dark side" motivating some of thse who are part of these groups.

 

Robert Ivall, Chichester, UK

 

While thinking that for a reenactment it would be necessary to have people playing the part of Germans. I am worried by the fact that some of those you spoke to did not want to talk about it. This does give one a feeling that some of them may have had somewhat sinister reasons for wishing to play the part of SS troops. The event does have a positive side in that it is a good way to learn about WW2 or for those already with an interest to further it. I hope that the old solider you mentioned at the start of the article and others like him enjoyed the event.

I think that worse than those dressing up as Nazis was the presence of David Irving. Boasting of shaken hands with more people that had shaken hands with Hitler than anyone else is downright sick.

 

Angelina Marriott, Essex, UK

 

Here is a glowing example of the BBC phobia about the right wing, after watching the first half of the program, all I could see was fishing, for something, other than what it was ,a day out, for most British people, with no underlying Political views.

Ok there was a `nazi`wedding, but there are cranks in all society, I think the vast majority would have swerved this, anyway.

The big joke IMO was the introduction of a German Historian, who was shocked (which she would be, after all the British, along with the Allies won),but the double standards she quoted.

How people forget the Germans are still at it as recent as the Munich Olympics, where the Palestinians were allowed to leave, Germany, after the hijack at the Olympic village.

 

We all know who’s side the Germans were on there, and that it was not some extreme right wing faction, it was the elected government of the time, watch One day in September, and watch the retired police chief smirk, at the `we let them away` comment, I am sure the BBC German Historian would be equally shocked at this too……..

 

John Rockwell, Dundee, Angus

 

I have a friend who participates in re-enacting in the states. One of the challenges (especially after Band of Brothers came out) is that most everyone wants to be GI's. But it is hard to do a re-enactment with all good guys. So he plays as a german, yes, SS. He said that the particular group he portrays, in addition to dying to a man, was the only one commended for their treatment of other troops. He also indicates that they try to keep only those willing to be 'weekend nazis'. That is, willing to do the portrayal and enjoy it, but not, at their heart, following the ideology. They don't want skinheads and neo-Nazi's, but people willing to play their roles, and die when they're supposed to.

Yes, he enjoys it. Not because he's playing a nazi, but because the activity is enjoyable. Which is the same reason a lot of the men playing GI's do so. It's a camp out, a chance to show off innovation ("barbed wire" that looks good but isn't dangerous), enjoy time with friends, etc.

 

Cat Skyfire, Lincoln, NE - USA

 

awesome. really. look, it's history and reenactment. get over it. are you going to just pretend that the nazis didn't exist, except to scold them for being horrendous little boys? or can we have an open, honest display of history, even if it means a few boys dress up in grey or black uniforms and heil hitler around a field somewhere once in a while. it's called living history. deal with it.

 

bob, washington dc, usa

 

I don't really see the harm in this. Storm in a tea cup. If they let this on as a TV programme they can give me the budget and I could find something a lot more interesting.

 

greg, charleroi, belgium

 

Nobody turns a hair, when Viking re-enactors are at an event, yet the list of atrocities they were responsible for were massive.

 

Nobody criticises the confederate army re-enactors, when they take to the field, yet the 'rebels' supported slavery.

 

Medieval, Napoleonic etc...etc... the list is quite large.

 

It is wrong to deliberately target, those people who choose to re-enact as German troops, of whatever regiment.

 

As for 'Secret Hidden Camera Work' by John Sweeney's crew, that really is abhorrent!! ...I am sure that if you 'secretly' film people speaking in any pub in Britain today you will here comments that might offend Mr Sweeny, but they are made between friend in private and not for filming, editing and showing to the public.

 

Finally, let me make it clear, I am not a German Re-enactor, I do not know David Irving, nor share his views. My relatives like many other fought two wars, so that people could have the right to live their own lives with freedom of speech.

 

Barry Ward, Bridgend, Mid-Glamorgan

 

I just like to correct Mr. Crane, of Dallas, TX on two points he made in his comment:

 

First

The SS had only one Islamic/Muslim Division, not two.

Second

The largest Division in the German Army was an SS Division. Its numbers never exceeded 18,000 men, reinforced (The average Wehrmact/Army Division ran around 13-15,000, and the Luftwaffe Field Division ran around 15,000.

 

The largest American Division in WW II was a reinforced Armour Division that had near 20,000 men: think it was the 2nd Armoured that landed at Normany in 44'?

 

Check them out.

 

Warnstedt, Lake Villa, Illinois

 

I have just seen the program to go with this article and the views and opinons raised by those participating were deeply disturbing. Glen Swanllow in particular raised certain personal opinions that did indeed leave me feeling "a little bit shivery".

My grandfather died in the war, to have even a minority group of neo-nazi's going round calling themselves Combat 18 etc, freely walking round this country that the died protecting i find offensive and intrusive.

This is obviously not an event that promotes the freedom of speech, that many millions of people died to protect; but an event that promotes "The dark side" of the war.

 

James Booth, Manchester, Great Britain

 

 

 

 

[Marmite!!]

Times coments part2

 

They are wearing replica uniforms. They are not the people who actually committed the atrocities during WWII. The guys quoted in above are clearly unable to answer simple questions. I wonder if all of the participants had similar answers?

In the US, the majority of German re-enactors are capable of explaining their history. We even have Japanese re-enactors at some shows, oh no!

I can't wait to read the follow up article about the hidden truth behind the Revolutionary War Re-enactments. Why do you choose to wear that Red uniform when it symbolizes "oppression & tyranny"? They murdered "rebels" captured during the "Revolutionary War"! Hey you…The Hessians soldiers you represent were "assassins for hire" who pillaged their way thru the American countryside, "so if you are going to wear it, at least do it accurately" & torch a few houses.

I was surprised that re-enactors weren't blamed for "global warming" in this article as well.

 

Matt C, Indian Mills, USA

 

I think people are seduced by the images and aesthetics and showmanship of the Nazi era, something that they (the Nazi hierarchy) understood extremely well.

 

sonny, london,

 

The people are actors. "...you can't re-enact World War Two without Germans ..." as Mr. Williams has pointed out.

One might well ask the actors in Tom Cruise's current filming why they play German soldiers. My guess would be that they are playing a rôle and aren't neo-Nazis dressing up in a country where even the symbols of Nazism are outlawed. They are being paid to dress up.

 

In America, where I grew up, we would play Cowboys and Indians. Everyone wanted to play a Cowboy and the Indians were considered somehow villians (historically inaccurate, of course) but someone had to play them.

 

This is not the same as in America where neo-Nazi racists dress up and march around in demonstrations. They are self-selected idiots who idolize someone or something in the Third Reich.

 

Obviously, if a Jew (according to your article) can play an SS officer there is no particular danger in others doing so. It is ironic and the author failed to catch that point.

 

Morgan Russell, Vienna, AUSTRIA

 

Looks to me like Sweeney is trying to make something out of very little, maybe he should try using his secret camera in a pub, he'll hear far worse than that.. If he can keep his temper in check that is!. Can you remember when programmes like this tackled serious subjects of national importance.

 

John Goodman, London,

 

Although I enjoy going with my family to these sort of events, I have always been disturbed that British people would enjoy dressing up as the people who killed their own fathers and grandfathers and sought to take over our own country.

 

The American Civil War was many generations ago, and the Napoleonic Wars even further. But the Nazis were only a generation ago, a generation that is still alive.

 

There is something very odd and disturbing in these groups. And seeing a group of men marching in Nazi uniforms and manifestly enjoying it very much shows something more than an interest in history.

 

Peter, Maidstone,

 

It's about history and free speech. Our President Regan wore the Nazi uniform in 1942. (for a movie part). Reinactment is big business. The SS had two Islamic divisions (64000 men each) in WWII. If you want to wear the uniform and talk history do it. I would add do it accurately.

 

S. CRANE, DALLAS, TEXAS USA

 

You can always find a few cranks among 100,000 people at a show like this. Some of the views may be uncomfortable but probably no worse than you would find in many pubs in England on a friday night. Re-eanctors on the whole are doing a great service in keeping history alive and should be commended for doing so when so many young people are apathetic about thier country's history and history in general. On another note, you can't re-enact World War Two without Germans - however much you may want to - you would be missing the point......

 

Paul Williams, Egham, UK

 

Listen,

 

You are looking for a story that does not exist. It is a War and Peace show and I would expect American, British, French, and German re-enactors to be at the shows doing there thing. Most of these men are not Nazis but just wanting to be a part of history and want to learn more about it. Why dont you ask American veterans about the shooting of prisoners when they landed at Normandy, its only fair.

 

Jim Kozuch, Arlington, Texas, USA

 

As a long standing member of the SBG, who attends every event they do, I feel I have to say something in defence of the group and its Chairman. In all my years with the group the Chairman and senior officers have done everything possible to weed out racists etc. At training days all new members are given a long lecture about the type of people who are not accepted by the group (Racists etc). But obviously as in every walk of life, people have their views. I do not hear racist remarks by members of the group wether it be on our displays or in the beer tent. Biased you might think! Well let me tell you, my wife of 25 years, and my children are black. We have other members with black, Jewish and chinese girlfriends. Weekend Nazis! NO! Just a great bunch of lads who enjoy what we do and have a fantastic time together. My wife has been to our shows and has been made most welcome. I hope this puts the record straight for some of you doubters out there.

 

peter Knight, Chelmsford, Essex

 

I wonder if there's also a re-enactment group that represents the bomber crews that destroyed Dresden? What about Red Army re-enactors, specifically those from asiatic regions of Soviet Union? You know, those that raped and pillaged throughout occupied Germany. We could also have re-enactors depicting Red Army troops that raped every woman in liberated concentration and death camp. Or for instance Commonwealth re-enactors that will be shooting German paratrooper re-enactors in the air while the weapons of paratroopers would still be in containers (Crete 1941)?

 

Also where are re-enactors depicting allied high command, ordering that no German paratrooper and SS soldier is to be taken prisoner while re-enacting battle of the Bulge?

 

J. Lambertsen, Denmark, Denmark

 

I have no problems whatsoever with anyone wanting to portray a German soldier from WWII. It's just dead obvious why anyone wants to portray a member of the SS. There are several very good non-political "German" groups in Europe and elsewhere, my experience is that SS-groups attract the sort of people that are more supportive of revisionist views. One feature they at least all have in common is the lame excuses they come up with" Yes, the Nazi's have done horrible things, but the Americans..." "Sure, atrocities were committed, but you know what the Russians did...?" etc., and the assurance that "it's not all black and white in war, you know..." Like that would make up for the milions of victims, let alone the shameless plunderiung of occupied territories the nazi's are guilty of.

 

I find it quite horrific to see neo-nazi's infiltrating in what is a beautiful hobby, and I intend to keep away from it as much as possible.

 

Marc Geerdink-Schaftenaar, Den Helder , Netherlands

 

Any conscript who serves in uniform deserves respect. Many millions of brave men and women, on all sides, lost their lives furthering the ideals of their leaders. Quarrels with the cause they are obliged to further are with the people who send them.

 

David Masu, Zürich,

 

I pay a licence fee for that drivel???.

 

Jock, Essex,

 

I spent 10 days at a past War & Peace making a broadcast doc. I heard casual racist and xenophobic conversations in equal quantities from all camps at the show, the German and Allied. You can hear the same in corners of most pubs in the UK, its everywhere not just at War & Peace.

 

Please dont take the snapshot presented by Mr Sweeney as representing W & P, there are 3000 re-enactors and hundreds of thousands of visitors who could show you another side.

 

M. Jeffs, Newton Abbot, Devon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The sooner we shy away from the past, the sooner stuff like this will happen again. The ss guys only really portray the ss beacuse you can't relive history and teach people without both sides being represented. I am a british re-enactor and the ss re-enactment guys are perfectly fine towards us and my unit and one of the guys is indeed Jewish. Ok, if there are people who are Neo-Nazis and they have infiltrated this unit, then they should be kicked out of it. All of the SS units i know about do not tolirate people using the unit to futher their own belifes and i know these guys will find out who has been expressing these veiws.

With the comments so far the words

"We are the angry mob,

we read the tabliods every day,

we like who we like ,

we hate who we hate,

but we're also easily swaid."

 

from a song come to mind.

Give these Guys a break!!!!!!!! Thank you to Daniel Seagraves, Peoria, for your good points.

 

Robert Weststone, Milton Keynes,

 

I absolutely agree with Leonard Bullhock - I saw the program and was astounded at the narrow-mindedness of it all... yes, those people interviewed are probably racist (through ignorance) and if that was the sole point of the program then well done Sweeney... but sadly, you could have gone into any village pub or town social club in this country for similar ingnorant xenophobic comments - I equally abhor facism - I strongly believe 'Combat 18' and the like are evil.... but pinning an entire argument on the SS' massacres is not enough - tommies also shot unarmed POW's because they didn't fancy taking them all the way to the rear - read Armageddon by Max Hastings - fascinating insight into the heroism and dark acts perpetrated by both sides... got to remember the cultural and social conditioning of these SS group members and (grudginly) respect their unquestioned abilities as professional soldiers...

 

Richard, Cambridge, UK

 

M. D., Munich, Europe

 

Yes, we have heard about that this "European reenactment declaration". Pity that one of the people behind it, who reenacts a German Paratrooper forgot that the LUFTWAFFE (of which one of the instigators of this "declaration" was a NATIONAL SOCIALIST invention! Hypocrite.

 

This is revisionism at its worst. You dont like aspects of YOUR history, then you choose to "forget" and sanitise it. You are no less of a revisionist than David Irvine.

 

Typical German really. Trying to tell others what to do, and how to do it. Didnt work in 1914, didnt work in 1939. Wont work now....

 

J.K., Bracknell, UK

 

I am in no way defending the SS but I would like to point out that Mr. Sweeney conveniently leaves out of his story the fact that NO country participating in WWII is completely innocent of battlefield atrocities. Japanese sailors machined gunned in the water after their ship is sunk, German soldiers shot after surrendering, and so on. As always it is only the history of the victors that is accepted as the truth. As a retired Army officer I am well aware of this fact.

 

Jim Kindred, Corinth, MS

 

What was the point of that documentary?

 

I think John Sweeney and the BBC should get some perspective. Did this subject really deserve prime time television? My grandfather fought in North Africa and Italy to allow me the freedom to do what I want, subject to being within the law. Surely the same applies here: although a little weird, all we have is a group of men dressing up and re-enacting wartime battles. If John or the BBC could provide any hard evidence of anything sinister other than bar room talk please bring it forward.

 

This hardly makes cutting edge journalism.

 

Chris, Bedford, UK

[Marmite!!]

Times comments last lot..

 

Perhaps you can't have WWII re-enactments without Germans, but there were plenty of rank-and-file German soldiers (my grandfather being one of them) with no ties to the Nazi Party or its ideology. These guys strike me as the sorts of garden-variety white-supremacist apologists in North America who are too cowardly to expose themselves as the pathetic losers they are and instead choose to hide behind the military trappings of an equally pathetic, happily defunct political movement. Racists are basically people who have *nothing* to be proud of other than the fact that they're not X (black, Jewish, foreign, gay, etc.),

 

Felicity Price, Calgary, Canada

 

I thought the German guy made a good point, on why people choose the German uniform - the Nazis understood image - and made striking uniforms.

 

Also the Waffen-SS were seen as excellent soldiers with strong characters - Michael Wittmann, Kurt Mayer.

 

Steven V, Cambridge, UK

 

S. CRANE, DALLAS, TEXAS USA

 

...The SS had two Islamic divisions (64000 men each) in WWII. If you want to wear the uniform and talk history do it. I would add do it accurately....

 

Mr Crane, what is the source of your information re 2 Ismaic Divisions in the SS? Would really appreciate if you would share your source.

 

seth taylor, cambs, uk

 

When you're playing cowboys and injuns, somebody has to be the injuns. And yeah, those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

 

John, El Paso, Texas

 

This article is highly disingenuous. Like a previous poster has said, you can hear far worse things said in the pub on a Saturday night. No context was provided for the comments made by Glen Swallow - given that he is ex-Army and probably served in a number of theatres, the 'Africans' he was referring to were probably other peace-keeping forces who have a particularly poor reputation - rather than black British soldiers. The comment by itself did not make sense. As for his anti-Muslim comments, these were no different from the things any non-Muslim might say in the heat of the moment after a few drinks, especially in the light of recent events.

 

Given that everything was in darkness - how convenient - the other 'reenactor' could have been a dupe armed with BBC beer money.

 

It should also be added that not every Waffen-SS soldier was a war criminal who shot POWs in the back. By the same token, I wonder if Sweeney might have asked the Gulf War group to show off their 'Abu Ghraib' scene?

 

Rick Joshua, London, UK

 

Sweeney seems to be a bit full of himself. The people who participate in war reenactments are rarely the same people who would sympathize with them - it's likely the other way around.

 

Additionally, Sweeney seems to have taken up the torch of Speech and Thought Nazi. Who cares what Irving thinks? He has a basic human right to say or think whatever he wants, so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. I think the Holocaust happened, but I'd deny it just to highlight the right to do so.

 

Kha, Belvidere, Illinois

 

stikes me the nazis were expert at propoganda and twisting the truth to excite the masses aginst the real threat by use of the media and clever editing

 

it seems mr sweeney is a bit of a expert on some of the nazi traits

ive met these guys and they are just guys who enjoy what they do

and as far as i know there were and have never been any massacres ate the war and peace show .

 

and by the way the russians massacred rather alot of their own side

how come he hasnt had a go at thier reenactors in the spirit of unbiased reporting or am i missing the point ?

 

K. Howard, southport,

 

As a visitor to the UK, and a collector of militaria, I visited the War and Peace show in Kent last month. I saw the display of the people accused of being Nazi's. I have to admit that I have not seen a finer collection of original militaria and vehicles anywhere else. As for comments by their members, you cant condem an organisation of 300 people (according to their website) because of the comments of a couple of people.

I also note on their website that they have been in existance for near on 30 years and have done countless film work for the BBC and others, so they cant really be that bad can they?

It would seem these people have been provoked into saying something, just as anyone could have been.

BTW, whilst I was looking at their display, a saw a British WW2 vet (I found out later he was a vet) recieve a large donation of cash that had been collected and donated by these people for comemoration projects.

Doesn't sound like something a group of Nazi's would be doing, does it.

 

Steve, Cambridge, New Zealand

 

I know its kind of controversial but admittedly the SS were excellent soldiers. Like the Luftwaffe they were at least as good if not better trained and equipped than anything the allies had. The nazi regime was of course extreme and the treatment of jews was appalling to say the least.

I`m British, and proud of it but find it difficult to understand why people believe it was only the germans that were the bad guys. Holocaust aside we were as bad. Its war. Carpet bombing of Dresden? approx 750,000 german civilans burned to death. In reality thats a war crime. One of many but because it was us there is no mention of it.

Some of the attitudes are right wing on the programme but in reality that can be heard in most workplaces up and down the country. Not that i agree with any of it but i`ve heard worse.

 

Leonard Bullhock, Glasgow, Scotland

 

So a few guys dress in old uniforms and say some pretty dumb things - it hardly deserves this treatment from our bold invesigator.

 

This crowd turned up for some re-enactment event near where we live - about ten miles from there is a council estate dominated by gangs, drugs and a gun and knife culture.

 

Now tell me Mr Sweeney - which do you think is the matter for greater concern?

 

M, Berkhamsted,

 

If thats what it takes to make you shiver

dont go out on the streets today its not nice out there

 

K. Howard, southport, england

 

I've never seen the attraction of dressing up in a German uniform but I thought Sweeney's docu was very poor. I've been to the War and Peace Show many times and the average attendee is far less racist and far better educated about history than you would find on the average British street.

 

I was disappointed that the programme made the War and Peace Show out to be about racism, it isn't, it is about military history. Any gathering of 100,000 people will unfortunately have a small number of racists present.

 

I do agree with Sweeney that holding extreme right views and dressing up in German WW2 uniforms is very worrying but I thought his film made little attempt to investigate that. His immediately confrontational approach scares people into silence before we have a chance to hear what they have to say. He then narrates his own opinion over the top of footage of them trying to get away from him. I'd like to see a Louis Theroux film on the same topic!

 

Mike, London,

 

I think its a more than fair point saying its completely wrong what a lot of the SS did to the Jewish people etc in the 2nd World War, there is no justifying their actions what-so-ever, but the point of re-enacting is to not commemorate or boast those parts of the war but to remember the side of the German army who were brave fighting men, who risked their lives for what they believed to be correct. the point that the majority of the re-enactors want to get accross is that their were as many brave men on the germans side as there was in the english, who they themselves would not of agreed with what went on, and not remembering or acknowledging what they did would be disrespectful, they may have killed our ancestors, but at the end of the day they were doing their job as much as our grand fathers/ fathers where going theirs.

 

Lewis Phillips, Maidstone, Kent

 

We most never forget the dead from World War 2. I'm just glad that my granddad ex LRDG was not a round to see these "reanactment Nazis" They are not only an insult but a scary reminder how people can "forget" things to suit thier own ends. My hushand dose reanactement of a D Day Beach Marster. But it is done with great accucy and repect. which is how it should be.

 

D HARDY, MIDDLESBROUGH, UK

 

This article confirms concerns that have been discussed within the European WWII living history scene for a while already. Therefore a couple of European re-enactment groups that are aware of the problematical situation regarding neo nazis or neo fascist revisionist within the WWII living history and re-enactment community have published an international WWII Living History Agreement in 2007 (http://au.geocities.com/wwii_lh_agreement/) where they disassociate from portraying NS party or NS party-related organisations. The disassociation also includes the boycott of events where such groups are permitted like it is the case in Kent. These groups feel that there is a big difference in portraying regular Wehrmacht units or portraying criminal racist NS-organisations like the SS which can’t be done authentically and without playing down their true role if you leave out racism, crimes and terrorism. There are many more arguments speaking against the portrayal of NS organisation which are explained at the website mentioned above. The agreement had received a lot of hatred attacks including open threats by those who favour NS re-enactment. By the way, no British re-enactment has joined the agreement so far – but the people who have initiated the declaration have received most violent threats from British re-enactors.

 

M. D., Munich, Europe

 

I must say that the programme, and the article, seem to be be forgetting the sheer popularity of the hobby, and it's appeal to many sectors of the community. If one were to dissect any fairly random group of 100,000 people, you are going to find those with racist views - singling them out and painting the rest of them in such a manner strikes me as somewhat mercenary and rather needlessly sensationalist. Having asked some of the Waffen SS groups questions about some of the atrocities in the past to satisfy my own curiosity, I have found them honest and forthcoming, and do not glamourise nor attempt to hide such aspects of the war and the unit they portray, and are a credit for the hobby. Indeed, at one event, I have come across one unit that was purposefully attempting to recruit black and South Asian members, so that the African and Indian troops who served with the British would not be forgotten.

All soldiers have a right to be remembered, not just those who won.

 

J. Cohen, Brighton, UK

 

If dressing up as a Nazi is so innocent, why was a senior member of this group not prepared to make any comment when interviewed? Why was one of them so interested in causing violence to the interviewer? If they are so innocent and just playing a role, why is it clear that when one of them is secretly filmed, overtly racist comments are made? This was only one individual who made such comments; I wonder how many others would do so also. There are ways to educate children about the war and the evil events associated with it, but this is certainly not it. Anyone with any decency whatsoever would not wish to dress up like a Nazi (including Prince Harry). Perhaps if any of the individuals posting on here had relatives (including children) killed in the gas chambers and tortured to death by Nazis, they would not be so understanding. Be in no doubt, these people were sick, evil individuals and some of those people impersonating them in such a manner, WILL be also.

 

Dr M Williams, Bristol, UK

 

I don't believe Nazism should be expunged from history. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Forgetting what happened merely allows the guilty to escape their crimes. If they want to wear SS uniforms and behave in an SS manner for the purpose of a war re-enactment or historical reasons, then they should be allowed and encouraged to do so. Visual representation is the best form of education and so many children these days don't remember those who served and died or why they did so. Anything that helps awareness of this is commendable. But if they want to be the new SS and resurrect Nazism, they need to be stopped.

 

Daniel Seagraves, Peoria, IL, USA

 

Do these comments really surprise anyone? Just look at their websites and forums. All guts and glory, only talk about the "best soldiers in the war", the "true fighters for a united Europe" and more outright revisionist lies. Not a single word about the atrocities and war crimes. The Waffen SS was declared a criminal organisation not out of a victor's mentality, but for good reason.

In General re-enactors are harmless souls who like to dress up and play war but here the naive, childlike innocence displayed by many of these people is counter productive.

These people are uninformed at best and dangerous. Dangerous because they promote the clean image of tough soldiers like all others and whitewash the history they claim to preserve. The true face of the Waffen SS can never be properly portrayed by any reenactor, but it is not surprising to see that some of these modern weekend warriors embrace the same politics as those which lead to the holocaust of World War 2.

 

A. Hingerl, Landshut, Germany

 

Very interesting report, and not surprising to find that some members actually believe in the idology expoused by the Nazis and embodied by the SS.

It is important to remember that the vast majority of the Waffen-SS soldiers were neither volunteers nor members of the Nazi Party and this includes Hitler's bodyguard regiment the LAH.

As early as 1942 the LAH received large transfers of Luftwaffe ground crews into their ranks to make good losses suffered on the Russian Front. (See General M Reynolds' book "Steel Inferno.")

Most probably join this group because of the "cool" looking uniforms - the Nazis did have a keen fashion sense. Others are no doubt attracted by the battlefield exploits of the Waffen-SS which were often quite amazing.

However...

While one might make the case for the innocence of an individual member, or admire the battlefied courage of a particular unit, these are forever tainted by the cause they served and the crimes they committed in that service.

 

D Reinke, Los Angeles, USA

 

If more reporters tackled the subjects that Sweeney does maybe there would not be so much TV 'soul searching' at Edinburgh from pompous Paxman and the like.

 

Sweeney always finds unique subject matter such as the recent docu where he tackled a religious sect. In that instance he apologised for losing it. I can't think why - it was docu-reality television at its best.

 

I'll be switched on to this - keep up the good work Mr Sweeney!

 

B Moffatt, Michael, Isle of Man

 

Guy calm down. People buy and sell slavery items in shops and online - including many african-americans! The same for items from the confederacy during the american civil war. Hell, there is even a HUGE statue to Jefferson Davis is southern ky. The point is that its HISTORY. Now, if people go about diseminating nazi propganda - then you can write your little "Hey, there are nazi's over there!" articles. unless any of the individuals you claim to have interviewed were thin, multi-tatooed, shaved-headed short hoodlums, then I would'nt be worried mate.

 

Harry, Sellersburg,

[Snapper]

More quality work from Lee. I've read a lot of these and I would suggest the storm in the tea cup may allow itself to recede. But as I said: don't be complacent.

[Markheliops]

I agree.

 

I think enough has been said on this subject and if allowed to stir up argument and strong views, could damage the very things we hold so dear.

 

I have said my piece, so have others.

 

I respect everyones views on this matter and I have my own.

 

For me - nothing more to say.

 

Markheliops

[Joris]

We, the mod team agrees with you Markheliops, all has been said

 

Topic closed, new topics on this subject will be closed as well.

 

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