Weekend Nazis-BBC1 on Monday

[Tony B]

so now does it mean that because i drive a Saracen and wear kit that was used with it i now hate all the Irish and am now going round trying to run them over?or does it mean I'm tyring to start the troubles again,NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

because you portray something be it whatever side you are not trying to restore it in the real world its for show!

I know reenactors very well from both sides and none of them have ANY intention of bringing back what happened!

As for secret filming at a show,in the beer tent of all things,well when I'm a bit drunk i could take over the world,does that call for a documentary,i think not!

There are more serious things happening in the world than this and if the BBC have nothing better to do than waste money then think they should look closer to home.

freedom of speech was one of the issues of the last war,millions died so we could do it remember that!

 

Doesn't make good journalism! Just expect the majority of the media would rather show us as a bunch of militaristic 4x4 driving planet murdering nutters. It take the emphasis of their own very dubious actions like trying to take bombs into airports and then when caught go holier than thou that it 'Is :bow: in the public intrest'.

[snowtracdave]

Good journalism.........isn't that a contradiction ?

[ashley]

Hi all,

i have very little desire to wear uniform with rank/ medals etc though i agree it does compliment (uniforms i mean) vehicles whatever their era / nationality.

 

I do know some re-enactors Britsh, German, Russian some reenact purely for historic portrayal. Though some others ...... politics play a large part (not to mention Enigma wearing his kilt :schocked: :schocked:)

 

A larger section of the equation is ........ how realistic should it be ? though being mainly a German militaria collector i must admit seeing the boy (for want of a better description) wearing Hitler youth uniform (at Beltring) was at first fairly disturbing but on talking to the lad he (at the time seemed level headed and interested in that particular collecting / re-enacting field)

Though i feel that any form of journalism covering the Third Reich period will at least be sensational (IMHO)

 

Ashley

 

 

[Tony B]

Good journalism.........isn't that a contradiction ?

 

OK for 'Good' read 'Gets the morons frothing at the mouth and the lovies cooing over their G&T's.

[Great War truck]

Lots of points to discuss here :box: and as we all have different thoughts on this emotions can run high.

 

However i think it is so morally wrong to financially benefit from the sale of something originating from such a camp. I understand that he had already sold several before he got to Beltring. I also understand that the farmer that he bought it off refused to sell him a number of the stretchers that he had acquired and had been used at the crematorium for disposing of the bodies. Maybe the farmer has some standards!

 

I was thinking of buying the trolley and donating it to an appropriate museum, but then the seller would have financially benefitted and i would have had to borrow the money, so maybe not such a good idea. Best that he has to carry it around for the rest of his life and never sell it (preferbly tied to a bit of his anatomy) - a suitable punishment.

 

As for Sweeny and his cameras, well he is bound to have a good story there. If not i am sure that he has made something up. Give anybody a few drinks and ask them to talk and you can get them to say something controversial without too much bother. I am aware of things occurring at Beltring and Detling that i do hope that they have not filmed, otherwise it could tar us all with the same brush. Like my previous post re the Youtube SS film, i feel that it will not take much to put us under the spotlight, turn public opinion against us and then wait for the Government to ban things that are precious to us.

 

For Sweeny and his cronies a program about British Nazis will sell much better than any mention of donations at the gate for the Royal British Legion. Such is life. Members of the SBG should have been more aware of the risks of talking on camera, so we will now see what happens. Probably not a great deal as this has all happened before when they were infiltrated by someone from the tabloids in the 1980's.

 

Tim (too)

[Marmite!!]

BBC1 8.30PM TONIGHT

[Markheliops]

Hi all.

 

Going to be a bit topical here.

 

Let me start with I am not a Nazi nor to a condone making money from peoples suffering, like selling items from concentration camps.

 

I am in agreement with all that has been written so far but I would like to raise this point.

 

I have visited Auschwitz and believe me when I say it is heart breaking to see and hear what went on. These grisly camps were the scene of much misery and human suffering beyond most peoples imagination.

 

The SS will be solely remembered for the atrocities committed in the Second World War.

 

It should be remembered the SS were a fighting unit and they were a formidable fighting force. It is a shame the SS will only be remembered for the horrible things that went on during the war.

 

All crimes against humanity should be deplored and it should also be remembered the Russians were no angles either. Some of the crimes committed against German civilians were no less brutal than the Jews suffered against the Germans.

 

The Allies were no angles either.

 

I hope people are not silly enough to think war crimes were only committed by the Germans and Japanese.

 

War is War. Unfortunately, whilst in Bosnia I experienced and saw brutality which I would not reveal to you on this forum.

 

I will never condone it but it will happen.

 

The British have their fair share of crimes against humanity throughout the ages.

 

I will repeat I have no time for Nazi's or their followers.

 

I have spoke to ex- SS soldiers and read many books. Most feel deeply ashamed for what went on during the war. They also feel ashamed and saddened for their fellow soldiers who died during battle, in that they will not be remembered as soldiers fighting for their country. They will only be remembered for the atrocities.

 

Some SS Soldiers were murderers and committed disgraceful acts against women and children and this should never be forgotten - other SS soldiers were brave, fierce and formidable opponents.

 

A balanced view.

 

One fighting unit can not be blamed for what went on during the war.

 

I blame the Nazi party and the people who committed these acts.

 

Markheliops

 

[Marmite!!]

Very well put Mark...

[Mark]

Hear, Hear Mark a nicely put piece

[Jack]

..did I see our very own Snapper in the beer tent footage????? :-D

[Marmite!!]

Hmmm... voices without faces

[Mark]

Well what was it like I am at work you know :dunno:

[Jack]

Well what was it like I am at work you know :dunno:

 

 

Hope someone recorded it as I only saw the last 5 mins.....

[sirhc]

It wasn't really worth the air time was it?

[Marmite!!]

It wasn't really worth the air time was it?

 

 

 

Nope... spotted Wayne Page in his Saladin at the start..

[ashley]

Hi all,

had a phone call to say I was in the first 5 minutes....this was the part i missed :dunno: the wall of silence from some participants put them in a bad light not to mention as said here "voices with out faces" .

 

Seems most of the sellers of the `nazi gear` were continental (according to the programme) and some of the largest (waistline wise) crack troops i have ever seen. :schocked:

I really don't know ..... reenact, to take on a persona, may be well during the battle but at the end of the day some people can not be themselves.

 

I feel that some of the "beer tent" chatter can be heard through out the U.K. with out the support of a uniform of any kind.

 

As for the combat 18 guy`s etc could be again "beer tent / beer talk" when i rode a motorbike i met many a supposedly Hells Angel.

 

Ashley

[David Ives]

what a waste of primetime tv :evil:

the programe just showed the nazi side of w&p what it didnt show was the fellowship that owning a vehicle gives and only concentrated on the germans ss types

it didnt show who won most of the battles thougth :whistle:

i wouldnt have gone to the stalls that just sold ss items as not interstered in that era but the men selling concentration camp items and nazi propagander should have been told to leave as w&p is supposed to be non political :whistle:in my view

sorry if this offends but its my view

[Nick Johns]

For all that missed it, the programme is repeated bbc1 late on thursday 30th at 12.45am

[Snapper]

Interesting comments from everyone.

 

I was appalled to see David Irving had attended peddling his filth. He should have been ejected. The Belsen trolley - what a pile of crap. Who would buy it. Only a-holes. Trouble is Beltring is a jam-jar for them.

 

It was a shame there wasn't a balanced coverage of much of the other periods covered beyond the little intro. But that wouldn't make a show.

 

I realise now I was on top of the very cagey film crew for some of the days. They didn't like me being near them wearing my Press Team shirt during the woods battle with the Paras shown. I thought I'd appear in shot. But no!..not yet.

 

The veteran was interesting. There were five in the arena for the battle on Sunday. I didn't ask what they thought. What difference would it make?

 

I was sorry that Sweeney's interview with Rex was not used - but not sure if Rex was. I'll ask him. In the end the disclaimer sounded like the sort of stuff you get in a mobile phone commercial. Mealy-mouthed. It did the show no credit and it wasn't designed to.

 

So, where do we go from here? I love Beltring. I like snapping the "Germans" though I've never made any pretence that I don't like them much as a concept - not the people - I barely know any of them. I can understand why people "might" choose the sexier German get ups to the sack of poo look of British wool serge uniforms. I wouldn't wear either - not for political or wool allergy considerations - and I have no right to anyway - yuck to both. But hey - the wool serge won!! God Bless them - ordinary people beat an atheiest murderous master race. Let it not be forgotten - we know it isn't - but you know what I mean.I do not like seeing the Hitler Youth and agree in many ways with the notion Sweeney's tame German historian made that the event doesn't teach us anything. But dow we need a load of anorexics struggling around in striped pyjamas to make a crude point? NO. Do we need some sort of platform for the Holocaust memorial groups?Maybe. The documentary spoke of a ban of Nazi symbols. I would not like to see the EU ban Nazi symbols, because they'd have to ban the Hammer and Sickle, too and believe me there are enough people who would soon hustle out our Union Flag thanks to Ireland, the Empire, slavery, opium, tea, football hooliganism, the Black and White Minstrel show and ...............(add your own). It's a circus.

 

I've been to Le Paradis and Esquelbecq where SS troops massacred British POWs. They are places that break your heart. I haven't been to Auschwitz, I haven't been to Oradour.My wife has been to Dachau...It is etched on her soul. Markheliops sought balance talking about the brutality of the victors in WW2 and what has gone on since - damned right. I support the bomber war entirely - but the terrorfleiger won and in another scenario would have been on trial. I agree with Mark: we need to strike a balance. But we cannot allow even a hint of neo-nazism to infiltrate our hobby, which is not what any of us wants.

 

If Sweeney did us one service, and I say IF; it was to send a bat up the nightdress of the sleepy notion of mild eccentricity that I have enjoyed for some years, and probably share with others. There are flies in the ointment-(my dad had another term - n... in the woodpile, how ironic for a man who had fought Nazism and was a card carrying communist - (but hey, they were worse racists in many ways) - and we need a clean hobby. Personally, I think we DO have a clean hobby, in the main, and I do not know what the re-enactor groups, the show organisers and perhaps even the MV clubs can do about it. Not much - but they need to show some effort. No more Irvings, no more Auschwitz souvenirs and no more neo-nazis would make a lot of sense. Watch this space.

 

If you saw the end of the documentary just after the racist rants in the beer tent, you would have seen two blokes chatting in the throng of Gingers. Me and a photographer friend. To be honest, I am more worried about that nano-second of TV exposure than anything else the Sweeneys of this world can do. Guilt by association is a terrible thing. Even when it is totally unwarranted.

 

See all of you at Beltring next year. I won't surrender to bigots or sensationalists.

 

[Rick W]

Haer-hear, very well put.

[Great War truck]

Excellent points raised by everyone. We seem to be of much of a like mind.

 

However, I think that the SBG could have added an interesting slant if they had told Sweeny that they were all Christian Scientists.

 

Tim (too)

[Larry Hayward]

Hi all,

 

I suspect there will be a few replies to this tonight!

 

I just watched the programme. Obviously it went to town on those who like to dress as Nazis, SS and Hitler Youth etc and who sell Nazis memorabilia. No doubt the German re-enactors will not like the programme as it suggests that many of them are supporters of the Far Right, when in fact there could be only a few. The leader of the Second Battle Group did his organisation no favours at all in saying no comment to the BBC in response to every question! He could at least tried to explain what his organisation was about. However secret filming in the beer tent certainly revealed a few Right Wing views that W&P could do without but I do not think what was said was particular to this kind of show, as I hear these same views in pubs up and down the country. The only difference is the bloke in the pub isn't dressed as an SS soldier when spouting off.

 

The BBC brought over a German woman to W&P who was shocked at what is allowed in the UK compared to German and other parts of the EU. There was the suggestion that the EU could be asked to introduce an EU wide ban of Nazis flags, memorabilia & emblems etc! Personally I would never ever want to dress in any German or SS uniform, but I still defend the right of others in the UK to do so.

 

I thought the comments about portraying war crimes too, in a show of this nature a bit stupid, for the very fact that if you actually did this then you would get hammered by the press for portraying such things as 'family fun'. I mean can you imaging getting a few Japanese re-enactors to drag a blindfolded Aussie into the arena and pretend to decapitate him with a samurai sword!

 

At the end of the programme, the BBC interviewed an author (sorry I did not catch the title of his book) who said that WW2 re-enactment shows in the UK reflect our experience of the war. Because we were never invaded we do not associate people dressed as SS in the same way as those in Europe who had to endure occupation. For that reason we do not see dressing as SS as so offensive, even thought many of us have parents who lost close relatives in WW2.

 

As for Nazis memorabilia on sale at W&P and Detling this week, I think there is a fine line between selling an original item of historical value and selling newly made mugs with Hitlers face on them which I find a little tacky. But then again if I agree that people can dress as SS soldiers I have to allow them to reproduce SS badges etc.

 

I wonder now if MV owners will now get tarred by the same brush - whether or not we wear any uniforms?

[Lawson]

well said markheliops i agree with all that you have wrote...

[Snapper]

Good points.

 

The book is called Achtung Schweinhund by Harry Pearson. It is next in line on my shelf. I will do one of my poncey reviews forthwith.

 

I agree about the war crimes aspect. Who could show them. Remember all the fuss on this forum when we had an American kid on who's re-enactor group in the States did a prisoner murder scenario??? Uproar HMVF style. GreatWarTruck may recall - he and I were quite vocal.

 

Sweeney was not at the Swamp for the Stockade battle. I listened in on the briefing. The "Germans" refused to take part in the battle which was intended to end with the US MPs shooting a few surviving huns who had killed their mates. The idea was dropped and the battle went ahead. There was no fuss, no silliness - the idea was put forward, they said no. Mutual Respect all round. They were being professional. I really appreciated the whole way it was discussed and put to bed.

 

The show will go on.

 

[ChrisPWRR]

Sorry I have not read all above posts as needed to say what a bad piece of journalism that was and how dare he portray war and peace in that way "a whole lot of war and no peace" The show brings together people all across the world who enjoy military vehicles not just nazi's. Ok a controversial author was there which did upset some people but he was not invited by Rex I did not know him by sight (excuse my ignorance)

 

I was angry with the journalist for having a secret mic in the bar when lots of things were being said I'm sure if he recorded half of us while drunken talking he'd accuse us of many things.

 

Accusing men who get together for a laugh re enacting as SS soldiers for staying silent as being nazi's or being under orders its just because he was asking the wrong sorts of questions you don't go up to any of us and ask so you portray the SS why don't you have a concentration camp here. The question answers its self that is offensive.

 

I didn't know David Irving was there but I'm sure next year anyone in living history will know if this reporter is there...

 

I am not saying I agree with the wearing of SS uniforms around the showground but I can't believe the way the "journalist" went about his questions.

 

Does this man not realise that there are many people that are further right wing then those at war and peace and the few that were at war and peace were such a small minority that it was not noticeable.

 

One thing I did agree with in the documentary was against the branding of English coins. I think that is disgusting and I am sure it is against the law as was he.