Somebody out there knows all about this !!

[Matt W]

No, you haven't a clue. You obviously have never served in the Forces, there is documentation for everything. Was your Dad in the RAOC? If not he would have been no where near the paperwork.

As for this Russian invasion threat, the Soviet Navy at the time was a  small coastal force with ZERO capability for an opposed landing at distance. It did not develop into a blue water fleet until the Gorshkov reforms of the early Sixties. Who isn't well read?

[paul connor]

Well, I must say I am impressed If he managed to bury tanks deeper than the GPR scan depth (>30m).

Furthermore, what did he do with the spoil; or were they shaking that out their trouser legs on the bypass each day so nobody found out?

 

[Matt W]

As for digging tanks in, this would be in disregard of the core doctrine of the RAC and would never have even been considered. It was tried during the Kaiserslacht but never repeated.

[Matt W]

Paul, maybe he hid the spoil and buried the vehicle docs under it?;-) 

[paul connor]

I suspect they dug another hole to put the spoil in from the first hole.

[Matt W]

Absolutely, but it was a secret hole. 

[andy brown]

6 hours ago, Matt W said:

Absolutely, but it was a secret hole. 

Well I concede to your superior knowledge ..just shows you what a" lying tow rag Churchill was"

[andy brown]

8 minutes ago, andy brown said:

Well I concede to your superior knowledge ..just shows you what a" lying tow rag Churchill was"

[andy brown]

13 hours ago, paul connor said:

Well, I must say I am impressed If he managed to bury tanks deeper than the GPR scan depth (>30m).

Furthermore, what did he do with the spoil; or were they shaking that out their trouser legs on the bypass each day so nobody found out?

 

One of the problems with gpr is that it is not that good at penetrating granite  ,something that was used to cover over the burials and crush in with an m6 ,I dug out a couple of areas of the western end of the main runway with a digger and again the whole.of that extended area of the runway sat on a severn foot thick bed of granite cobles ,just scrambles gpr ........ .

[79x100]

14 hours ago, paul connor said:

I suspect they dug another hole to put the spoil in from the first hole.

 

[paul connor]

Right, let's unpack this.

Firstly who allowed you access with an excavator onto the properly when you seemingly spend most of the time looking through the fence? Much experience with excavators, I'm guessing you have your ticket for that?

Secondly,  there is not packed granite on the site under the pads, you're in the realms of fantasy now. I've been supplied images of a sectional profile of the pads depth, as requested that OA undertake. 2 pours of concrete pads, pretty much standard. I've monitored works at three airfield and that's pretty normal. 

Normal practice for substrates for airfield runways and pads isn't granite. Shall I supply you the WD regulations concrete pads

I'm afraid commercial GPR isn't the kind you would hire easily. And I've seen the data from the site and it is far from inconsistent. If you're still not convinced I can arrange for you to likely attend a GPR course so you can gain further understanding? Maybe then you may realise that the data suggests there isn't vehicles under this section?

I guess next you'll suggest I'm a sleeper cell working for TNA and your local MP?

 

[andy brown]

38 minutes ago, paul connor said:

Right, let's unpack this.

Firstly who allowed you access with an excavator onto the properly when you seemingly spend most of the time looking through the fence? Much experience with excavators, I'm guessing you have your ticket for that?

Secondly,  there is not packed granite on the site under the pads, you're in the realms of fantasy now. I've been supplied images of a sectional profile of the pads depth, as requested that OA undertake. 2 pours of concrete pads, pretty much standard. I've monitored works at three airfield and that's pretty normal. 

Normal practice for substrates for airfield runways and pads isn't granite. Shall I supply you the WD regulations concrete pads

I'm afraid commercial GPR isn't the kind you would hire easily. And I've seen the data from the site and it is far from inconsistent. If you're still not convinced I can arrange for you to likely attend a GPR course so you can gain further understanding? Maybe then you may realise that the data suggests there isn't vehicles under this section?

I guess next you'll suggest I'm a sleeper cell working for TNA and your local MP?

 

Ha ha ha.i dug holes all over that airfield who are you to even question me ? If you run back through this thread youll find a pic of a army digger I used in the tree plantations ,wake up ..I used up to date commercial gpr also a magnetometer and a whites 508 ,I even dug in the southern side plantations and found the foundations of a farm house along with Georgian land drain pipe work even working in the snow ,check the thread back and you'll find my gate and vehicle pass I had access for almost two years and there wasn't a square foot of that airfield I and my staffy dog hadn't walked on ,ps  my dog sat on the runway in the sun one day and refused to move when two Apache helicopters came in the crew ,were laughing their heads of when they eventually landed...getting in places is what makes it more of a challenge probably take after my father ......

[ruxy]

03/4/2016  post by  AB   'The Russians are coming'  - talk similar to Hitlers Op. Sealion  -  where does this info. come from  ?

All that I am aware of - but just what is true/false  ?  

1971  MI5  under Martin Furnival Jones   -  apparently Soviet Spetznaz  were to attack MOD & US bases , saboteurs target public services, such as water,power, transport , communications and nerve centres of government.  True  ?   Well I will not mention Peter Wright types  & apparently the NAFTA petrol filling station chain (later sold to Q8) , many uneconomic stations built in line of gov. microwave communisations.  Twenty five Russian intelligence officers running about 400 agents   Heath PM wanted the lot thrown out.     MI5 swooped and expelled  105 Soviet Agents. 

[John F]

3 hours ago, 79x100 said:

 

I used to have the full set of Bainsfather cartoons, wish I still had them.

[paul connor]

"Who are you to even question me?", well, who are you to suggest Oxford Archaeology as a professional commercial unit are lying with their GPR results? Who are you to question my fellow archaeologists interpretation of data, furthermore my own?

Who are you to post a single thread on a forum and disregard everyone who questions or provides answers and data? Even arguing with them and continually avoiding direct questions. Your posts are inconsistent and contradictory at best, bordering on the realms of fantasy with subjective interpretation of selective and dubious evidence.

I'm done. I wish you all the best, and hope that someday you find peace from this obsession, and stop bothering authorities and MPs with fantasy theories.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by paul connor

[Ashcollection]

Like i said in one of my earlier reply's, I've spoken to the MD of the comapny doing all the work, and he said he'd love to find all these tanks, it would make world wide news, and they could have put on on a plinth. but alas there aren't any.

[andy brown]

1 hour ago, paul connor said:

"Who are you to even question me?", well, who are you to suggest Oxford Archaeology as a professional commercial unit are lying with their GPR results? Who are you to question my fellow archaeologists interpretation of data, furthermore my own?

Who are you to post a single thread on a forum and disregard everyone who questions or provides answers and data? Even arguing with them and continually avoiding direct questions. Your posts are inconsistent and contradictory at best, bordering on the realms of fantasy with subjective interpretation of selective and dubious evidence.

I'm done. I wish you all the best, and hope that someday you find peace from this obsession, and stop bothering authorities and MPs with fantasy theories.

 

Unfortunately I got a little side tracked there for a while , but just for the record despite the objections waterbeach airfield main runway at the western end that area that was extended and widened to accommodate American bombers circa 1950 sits as I said on a bed of granite cobbles approx seven foot deep or thick ,never mind concrete pads ,cobbles !! Well this end of the runway has a problem ,the water table is approx eighteen inches below the runway surface ,I dug this area and landed up with a swimming pool ,obviously the sandy soil with that much water would not have supported the weight of the runway let alone a us bomber.

[andy brown]

14 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

Like i said in one of my earlier reply's, I've spoken to the MD of the comapny doing all the work, and he said he'd love to find all these tanks, it would make world wide news, and they could have put on on a plinth. but alas there aren't any.

I assume you refer to Andy branding of urban and civic that being Hammond's right hand man on site and at alchonbury  ,he was the first man I approached re the burials when urban civic alias at the time grant crest ,this was the first he heard of it but within a few days he and Hammond both had the same reply ( it's been checked it's been checked there is nothing there) nooow it hadn't been checked .

Now what is underway re development in the initial stages is window dressing it's just a small portion of the whole 300 hectares as yet still sucking in investors prior to building a complete new town .lord Hammond is no fool he wants big investors beyond his existing company 

Here we now have 

INNOVO Holdings ltd.

List of directors -: 

Teh Kate chi ling  sec;

Amaarri Abdlaziz Mohamed Saif binshafar ....Director UEA

Azmy Bshoy Director UEAa

Chen mei Fang  Director 

Gendy mariamedmad Azmy Director UEA

Hammond Philip Lord Director UK 

Maier juergen Wolfgang Director....

This is the in road to world banking and investment wha these people an d their contacts don't know isn't worth knowing 

They wouldnt  invest in anything that looked like it had a governmental problem everything has to be squeaky clean ,so no thanks no tanks .......

[ruxy]

3 hours ago, andy brown said:

Unfortunately I got a little side tracked there for a while , but just for the record despite the objections waterbeach airfield main runway at the western end that area that was extended and widened to accommodate American bombers circa 1950 sits as I said on a bed of granite cobbles approx seven foot deep or thick ,never mind concrete pads ,cobbles !! Well this end of the runway has a problem ,the water table is approx eighteen inches below the runway surface ,I dug this area and landed up with a swimming pool ,obviously the sandy soil with that much water would not have supported the weight of the runway let alone a us bomber.

The Dambuster Lancaster bombers took off from  RAF  Scampton when it was a GRASS field  , the odd Lanc.  returned early against all orders with a  hung-up bouncing bomb on the same grass field (probably the heaviest landing by the RAF on a UK grass field during WW2).   Hard runways were with advantages but even grass with surface water is not a great problem.  In fact light aircraft in Alaska/Canada have larger than standard balloon tyres for landing in shallow water.  Several years ago a pilot similar equipped was reported for repeat touch down (practice) on Lake Ullswater,Cumbria - he was taken to court but won his case.

[Matt W]

Don't let him drive you away Paul, this is good fun!

Because I enjoy a challenge I've tried to work out some figures for this. These are only estimates, I'm not an Engineer (Civil or RE). 

Churchill tank dimensions 7.62mtr L x 3.25mtr W x 2.69mtr H.

Buried at 35mtrs (To avoid GPR!)

I have arranged the Churchills in 16 rows of 20 tanks (320 in total, leaving 6 out) and given them a 10mtr space for access.

16 x 7.62mtrs + 10mtrs = 162.40mtrs long, 20 x 3.25mtrs +10mtrs = 62mtrs

x 35mtrs = Total volume of excavation 352408Cbm

Plus two ramps into the excavation allow two Aveling dump trucks to pass each other = 10815Cbm

Overall excavation total 374038Cbm.

To dig out this hole I have used two Road Construction Coy RE (Their WE shows 4 x excavators each) Machines used are Bucyrus 37s with a bucket capacity of 0.9556Cbm, capable of moving 86Cbm / hour. Output figure are from "RE Guide to Mechanical Equipment" 1944.

Bucyrus 37 move 688Cbm per hour. I have set the working week as 5 days of two 12 hour shifts. 2 hours per shift for maint, refuelling, etc, so 10 hours digging per shift. Saturday is a maint and overhaul day and Sunday is a rest day.

374038Cbm divided by 688Cbm = 543hours or 5.43 weeks to dig the hole.

Meanwhile, an RASC Tank Transporter Column is moving the tanks to Waterbeach. The nearest AVSD to Waterbeach was at Abbotts Ripton, 23.78 miles away. Allowing for 2 runs per day it will take 10 days for all the tanks to be moved.

 

 

[Matt W]

Once the tanks are safely in their hole backfilling can commence.

The tanks take up 27082Cbm. I have made the runway 2mtrs of aggregate (Not granite) topped by 0.5mtrs concrete (Should have asked Paul for the correct composition). This amounts to 25172Cbm.

There will be a surplus of 52257Cbm of spoil to be disposed of somewhere.

Backfill time and compaction 4.36weeks.

To move in the aggregate and cement will take 66 trains (Assuming 50 x 15t wagons per train)

Time to spread and roll aggregate 1 week plus 83 hours to lay the concrete. Concrete will then take approx. 28 days to cure.

[Matt W]

Total time taken -

Excavation 5.43weeks

Moving tanks and placing in hole 1.42 weeks

Backfill 4.36 weeks

Aggregate foundations 1 week

Concreting 0.5 week

Drying time 4 weeks

Total 16.781 weeks or 4.2 months

[Matt W]

As for manpower -

2 x Road Construction Coy RE 410 men

Supported by-

1 Field Park Coy RE 213men

1 REME Plant Workshop 75 men

RAOC Workshop Store Section 10 men

RASC Tank Transporter Column 85 men 

RAOC AVSD (Disposal Section) 20 men (Estimate only)

Total 813 men directly involved. Then there would be RAF Waterbeach staff, Security , ETC.

Not to mention 66 special trains (I have tasked the Field Park Coy to move the aggregates from the railhead to the site)

[john1950]

Sensible questions and answers. Intelligent debate.

[Matt W]

So that's my take. Around a thousand men working for 4.2 months supported by British Railways. And only ONE remembers this!

52257Cbm of spoil to be disposed of somewhere in Waterbeach.

By the way, Elvington Airfield had a similar problem with water ingress when rebuilt by the USAF at the same time as Waterbeach. Granite wasn't used there either.