Somebody out there knows all about this !!

[paul connor]

Still no tanks there. 

[paul connor]

I guess we never asked the most obvious question - what scale were the tanks that he buried? 1:32, 1:48, 1:72?

[Rangie]

12 minutes ago, andy brown said:

you will have be content with the fact that until that happens  am right...

Well no Andy, you are neither right nor wrong. Until this is proved or disproved they are Schrodinger's Tanks.... 

If Paul has GPR survey data of the whole site, including the aprons, and the survey shows no large infill/large metal hits but just "generic" (sorry to use that term) archeological hits beneath them, it will take a lot of convincing now sadly.

Prove them wrong with empirical evidence, I would love to see hundreds of buried tanks!

Paul, has there been any boreholes dug/sampled? Any rust/iron-rich runoff/oil/ground contamination to be found?

Alec.

[paul connor]

Hi Alec,

Geoarchaeological samples were taken, although I have not read that report. If there was anything suggesting scale contamination my friend would have informed me, as we were talking about the fantasy idea of buried vehicles. So, unless they are around 40m down, which isn't possible, the only tanks located at the site are for fuel and water. 

[Great War truck]

It might be an idea to mention Andy's other thread and see if we can draw any comparison:

 

[Jack]

5 hours ago, paul connor said:

Andy, if you take away oral testimonies from your story, what do you actually have that is quantifiable primary source evidence? As so far within the entire context of this thread it appears to revolve around tales that are subjectively interpreted and bias. 

 

 

 

Andy - Paul has made a very good point with this. Take away the oral history and what is left on the table? It sounds very familiar when Wargaming went after the 'buried' Spitfires in Burma, and we all know how that ended. 

Originally it was thought as many as 124 Spitfires were buried by the RAF at the end of the war but they have now concluded it was a myth.Andy - Paul has made a very good point with this. I believe David Cundall is still chasing the dream.

 

Quote

 

A dig at the international airport near the city of Rangoon, which used to be RAF Mingaladon, has drawn a blank. The project was financed by Wargaming Ltd, who have said they believe the story about Spitfires being delivered in crates and then buried was not true.
 

Tracy Spaight, Wargaming's director of special projects, said: "No-one would have been more delighted than our team had we found Spitfires.
 

"We knew the risks going in, as our team had spent many weeks in the archives and had not found any evidence to support the claim of buried Spitfires."

 

[Matt W]

Re. Milton. I never said there were no tanks there, I said it wasn't an AVSD. Two totally different things. Milton may well have held American tanks, but that's not the issue.

I've checked with guys on the RAOC Vehicle Specialist forum. They confirmed that Milton was never either a Vehicle Depot or an AVSD. It was never even an RAOC depot. No depot , no tanks, no test runs on the road and certainly no 360 spins.

So i can agree with Paul, no tanks!

[No Signals]

57 minutes ago, Matt W said:

Re. Milton. I never said there were no tanks there, I said it wasn't an AVSD. Two totally different things. Milton may well have held American tanks, but that's not the issue.

I've checked with guys on the RAOC Vehicle Specialist forum. They confirmed that Milton was never either a Vehicle Depot or an AVSD. It was never even an RAOC depot. No depot , no tanks, no test runs on the road and certainly no 360 spins.

So i can agree with Paul, no tanks!

I totally agree with you and Paul with your posted arguements, but to give Andy a tiny bit of credibility I have to say that the 'crap' photo he provided of Milton(?) does appear to have two transporters and at least two tanks.  I make no claim that my i.d. of them is definite but they do look along the right lines. This may perhaps call in to question the results you drew from the guys on the RAOC forum.  It could be that for some reason there were some tanks there at the time this photo was taken, irrespective of it being an RAOC Vehicle Depot?

[10FM68]

16 minutes ago, No Signals said:

I totally agree with you and Paul with your posted arguements, but to give Andy a tiny bit of credibility I have to say that the 'crap' photo he provided of Milton(?) does appear to have two transporters and at least two tanks.  I make no claim that my i.d. of them is definite but they do look along the right lines. This may perhaps call in to question the results you drew from the guys on the RAOC forum.  It could be that for some reason there were some tanks there at the time this photo was taken, irrespective of it being an RAOC Vehicle Depot?

 

[Matt W]

Yes i agree there are tanks on the photo. Milton was a US Army depot so i would have thought they were American.

I have also checked the Corps history which lists all the depots in the Vehicle Organisation from the end of War until the Eighties. Milton isn't listed there which i think is conclusive.

[10FM68]

I have followed this thread closely since the beginning, though chose to withdraw from comment after becoming increasingly exasperated at Andy's reluctance to answer straight questions and his determination to avoid 'coming clean, but I carefully logged all his comments in a word document so I could watch as changes took place - which they have done, repeatedly. 

Andy enjoyed giving us all the run around with occasional rude remarks about our being 'know-it-alls' as he went along.  Just how long did he take before he would admit to the site being Waterbeach, when, of course, he knew it was Waterbeach all along?  No, we had to be given coordinates and then one of the pair was wrong. There was no need for that and his demand for our 'patience' every now and again I found simply rude. 

Two holes are mentioned from time to time - are we to be told where the second site was? 

The whole story made no sense from the very beginning:

Why choose an active airfield belonging to the RAF when the Ministry of Supply was already holding these tanks elsewhere?   I believe that, at this time responsibility would rest with the MoS rather than the War Office, though I may be wrong.

And, of course, why bury them at all?  We were given a load of contradictory nonsense about the USA and lend-lease, then something about the Canadians and so it went on. 

Why was it necessary to remove the data plates when, presumably, the secretly buried tanks were never to be found anyway.  

Apparently Andy was given a map by his father in 1959, but only discovered the site to be Waterbeach after, what was it, ten years of looking?  again, it makes no sense.  If my dad were telling me such a story and providing a map when I was in my late teens or early 20s, you can be sure I'd want to know where it was and as many details as I could possibly get out of him, not wait for many years until the sale of some dataplates prompted me to look at the issue.  Bizarre.

It was really excellent to get Paul Connors' input given his credentials and his contacts - that, Andy, is the proof you claim you were looking for when you started this thread - it just isn't the proof you wanted. I must say, though, it is credible while your story isn't - in any way at all. 

The only thing I do agree with, and that has been raised by @No Signals above, is that the pictures of Milton allegedly taken after the war does seem to show some British kit: the first of the two tank transporters looks more like a Scammell than a Mack to me (though I accept that more Macks were used by the British than they ever were by the Americans) and, in the first row, bottom right, after what appear to be open-top Greyhound armoured cars seems to be a Churchill with a possible row of scout cars - Dingoes perhaps, at right angles to that row.  The idea about the Buffaloes is daft, of course, as burying them hull down would be no defence as they aren't tanks, but, holding them in the eastern counties after the winter of 1947 makes some sense given that they were used in flood relief.  Ironically, some being buried to provide dykes!  Whether the photo does show Buffaloes, though, is open to debate.

Like everyone else, though I find this thread fascinating, for which Andy must be thanked, but, could I ask him (and I know my plea will fall on deaf ears as Andy doesn't do answering straight questions) now to reveal all the other bits he claims to be withholding - not the nonsense about Hammond - wrong forum for that, but, if he has any other real or imagined insights into military historical matters, please let us have them!  We'd be delighted to read more - conspiracy theory or fact - it's all grist to the mill!

[10FM68]

3 hours ago, ruxy said:

The RAF did not obtain best agricultural land for Chain Home radar sites or airfields leading up to and during WW2.  RAF Dundonald near Irvine is interesting on what they did (quite a few goes at it)  - badly waterlogged .  Ripped up now and ISTR the site of Olympic Business Park after earlier being a large factory then Trading Estate.  However - this was for light military aircraft.   In my extensive library - I can only think of a single procedures for runway construction for a badly waterlogged site. .  It was built on a farm called  Goosepool (that tells the story for starters).    It's 20 years since I purchased the book circa. publication date 2003 , it's a weighty tome  295mm x 210mm x 2m  ,   now with a £ weighty asking £$ price  (most seemed to end up in Canada and you would probably have to re-import).  Not read it since 2003  - so will have to find time to revise. I don't rcall the depth of foundation being so deep or from costly material. From what I recall - ballast brought to site via. a rail sidings built for purpose, lots of work  IIRC - longest runway in England for bombers.   It was slave labour almost by out of work miners, the unwell/physically impaired  and youths (four actually died on the job) , if they didn't accept the  £ free pair of boots and get on a taxi truck - then the Ministry of Labour stopped their DOLE.  Of course more info. can be gleaned with great difficulty that is not within the book.

GOOSEPOOL :  The History of RAF and RCAF  Middleton-St. George and Teesside Airport  by  Stanley D. Howes.

 

I think that the longest runways built in Britain during the war, and certainly the widest, were the emergency ones on the east coast.  They had no facilities or permanent squadrons, but they had bulldozers and ambulances and were kept lit.  The idea was that, if you were returning from a raid over Germany and your aircraft wasn't going to make it home, then you plonked it down on one of these emergency sites, the aircraft would be bulldozed to the edge of the runway, any casualties carted off and that was it.  RAF Manston was one, as was RAF Woodbridge and a third was near Brightlingsea: all are clearly still visible on Google Earth and, yes, they're very distinctive.

[10FM68]

3 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

I think that the longest runways built in Britain during the war, and certainly the widest, were the emergency ones on the east coast.  They had no facilities or permanent squadrons, but they had bulldozers and ambulances and were kept lit.  The idea was that, if you were returning from a raid over Germany and your aircraft wasn't going to make it home, then you plonked it down on one of these emergency sites, the aircraft would be bulldozed to the edge of the runway, any casualties carted off and that was it.  RAF Manston was one, as was RAF Woodbridge and a third was near Brightlingsea: all are clearly still visible on Google Earth and, yes, they're very distinctive.

Goodness knows why I wrote Brightlingsea - I don't even know where that is - I meant Bridlington!

[Matt W]

Just outside Bridlington, RAF Carnaby. Was used as a Thor missile site as well. John Bull Rock factory and World of Rock there now!

[10FM68]

32 minutes ago, Matt W said:

Just outside Bridlington, RAF Carnaby. Was used as a Thor missile site as well. John Bull Rock factory and World of Rock there now!

That's the badger!  Do they make granite at the Rock Factory by any chance?

[utt61]

I wonder if Andy also knows the location of the fabled "strategic reserve" of perfectly preserved steam locos which legend has it were squirreled away, supposedly in Box tunnel, just in case of need (despite of course the fate of every British steam loco being documented). Perhaps they were added in a third massive excavation.

[Great War truck]

We already did that a few years ago on this forum. We need something new and original to find and then disprove the existence of. 

[ruxy]

So  -  05/02/2023 after 6+ years , the Andy Brown story of hundreds of burried tanks is deemed  - codswollop , the work of a creative mind.  Then it is suggested that one looks at AB's other post as originator :-

History repeating itself.a waste of 60 years  (posted 15/82022).

AB  - gets the last word and gets no bite in response , it's a case of down but not out on the case of the black ball.

Andys - last typing ,   I was unaware that they produced a missile in the shape of a sphere.

---------

So - the day Andy was a tractor mechanic (civvy) on a RAF field, like most technicals - he would be nosey & store in memory  ?      If the story is not contrived - then w.t.f.  did Andy observe  ?

Could it have been the "Radioactive Bomb"  ?  Probably the greatest secret of WW2 on  ?   Not the two route to a nuclear explosion. 

At close down of Tube Alloys and hand over £$ free to the USA , the greatest secret was the Cyclotron.  There was the idea of an Americal scientist (as if a British scientist had not considered,  as if Blunt & team had not passed it on to Russia (until Op. Barbarossa Russia shared all secrets with Germany).   Both Chadwick and Oliphant were ordered to keep their mouths shut.   The idea was a dirty bomb,  to use the radioactivety of the cyclotron - the nuclear accelerator for producing a stream of electrically charged atoms or nuclei travelling at a very high speed - in a bomb.  This could destroy the human population of a large city.  Apparently Sir Mark Oliphant  - made no mention until January 1994, posibly by then he had lost a few marbles ?  Oliphant merely said  - that the radioactive bomb was a contentious issue in the immediate post-war years  !

[andy brown]

1 hour ago, ruxy said:

So  -  05/02/2023 after 6+ years , the Andy Brown story of hundreds of burried tanks is deemed  - codswollop , the work of a creative mind.  Then it is suggested that one looks at AB's other post as originator :-

History repeating itself.a waste of 60 years  (posted 15/82022).

AB  - gets the last word and gets no bite in response , it's a case of down but not out on the case of the black ball.

Andys - last typing ,   I was unaware that they produced a missile in the shape of a sphere.

---------

So - the day Andy was a tractor mechanic (civvy) on a RAF field, like most technicals - he would be nosey & store in memory  ?      If the story is not contrived - then w.t.f.  did Andy observe  ?

Could it have been the "Radioactive Bomb"  ?  Probably the greatest secret of WW2 on  ?   Not the two route to a nuclear explosion. 

At close down of Tube Alloys and hand over £$ free to the USA , the greatest secret was the Cyclotron.  There was the idea of an Americal scientist (as if a British scientist had not considered,  as if Blunt & team had not passed it on to Russia (until Op. Barbarossa Russia shared all secrets with Germany).   Both Chadwick and Oliphant were ordered to keep their mouths shut.   The idea was a dirty bomb,  to use the radioactivety of the cyclotron - the nuclear accelerator for producing a stream of electrically charged atoms or nuclei travelling at a very high speed - in a bomb.  This could destroy the human population of a large city.  Apparently Sir Mark Oliphant  - made no mention until January 1994, posibly by then he had lost a few marbles ?  Oliphant merely said  - that the radioactive bomb was a contentious issue in the immediate post-war years  !

It would appear that I am not flavour of the month in some people's eyes but as yet there hasn't been much other than assumptions and a will to do a demolition on me. a concerted effort one my say , not that I expected to get a smooth passage with the ever present shadow of Hammond hovering in the background .not that anything that has come out of this that's to my detrement just a few showing their frustration , an example of this came by way of the rebuff against my mention of the buffalo and what it represented ie ,russian invasion ,that set them off ,something else of my fantasy world ,

[Ashcollection]

What Andy fails to grasp in his games since 2016 is that there are many professional members of this forum who are very knowledgeable in military history, archology, politics, logistics, etc, many from military backgrounds, and we would love more than anything for the story, of was it 326? buried tanks to be true. But even after 7 years Andy still hasn't given us the evidence that he claimed to have back at the start on the conversation. he has drip fed information, and as each one was disproved he has excused the answer and modified the story, just like the conspiracy theory that it is. As a keen follower of history and geopolitics I'm still waiting with bated breath to find out what the controversial future political implications of finding these tanks are that Andy mentioned back in 2019.

[andy brown]

11 minutes ago, andy brown said:

It would appear that I am not flavour of the month in some people's eyes but as yet there hasn't been much other than assumptions and a will to do a demolition on me. a concerted effort one my say , not that I expected to get a smooth passage with the ever present shadow of Hammond hovering in the background .not that anything that has come out of this that's to my detrement just a few showing their frustration , an example of this came by way of the rebuff against my mention of the buffalo and what it represented ie ,russian invasion ,that set them off ,something else of my fantasy world ,

A few excerpts from..

August 1948 cabinet preparations for defence

Memorandum by the prime minister

The defence of the United kingdom

Defence of essential communications

Defence of middle east

Bases for u.s strategic air force in UK and middle east stocking of Airfields in EAST ANGLIA 

Should war break out ,or its threat become imminent at any time in the next six to nine months ,fairly extensive plans have already been prepared ,and are being perfected every week - for a crash mobilisation..

Specific attention to the recall of war time A/A crews where ever possible 

Actions in response to the meetings of foreign ministers in Moscow promote the need to safeguard what we have and under take to supply what will be needed

Anti aircraft ammunition 

The rate of production should be built up to the following level

5.25he.       10.000 per month

3.7mark 1v he 5000per month

3.7mark111 he. 30,000 per month 

Small arms ammunition should be raised from 200 million rounds to 400 million

Bomber airfields ....

Four additional airfields should be prepared in the UK for the use of U/S heavy bombers 

Fighter aircraft 

Additional orders placed for jet fighters venoms and or meteors ,..piston engine fighters held in sock to be bought to a state of readyness and supply's of spares will be required for same...

The lists go on covering everything from steel production shipping refurs ,radar up grades , labour distribution ,.construction materials ,production of respirators ,vehicle produçtion , etc,ect 

So this was pie in the sky ....according to the g and t Oxford brigade ....

 

[paul connor]

4 minutes ago, andy brown said:

A few excerpts from..

August 1948 cabinet preparations for defence

Memorandum by the prime minister

The defence of the United kingdom

Defence of essential communications

Defence of middle east

Bases for u.s strategic air force in UK and middle east stocking of Airfields in EAST ANGLIA 

Should war break out ,or its threat become imminent at any time in the next six to nine months ,fairly extensive plans have already been prepared ,and are being perfected every week - for a crash mobilisation..

Specific attention to the recall of war time A/A crews where ever possible 

Actions in response to the meetings of foreign ministers in Moscow promote the need to safeguard what we have and under take to supply what will be needed

Anti aircraft ammunition 

The rate of production should be built up to the following level

5.25he.       10.000 per month

3.7mark 1v he 5000per month

3.7mark111 he. 30,000 per month 

Small arms ammunition should be raised from 200 million rounds to 400 million

Bomber airfields ....

Four additional airfields should be prepared in the UK for the use of U/S heavy bombers 

Fighter aircraft 

Additional orders placed for jet fighters venoms and or meteors ,..piston engine fighters held in sock to be bought to a state of readyness and supply's of spares will be required for same...

The lists go on covering everything from steel production shipping refurs ,radar up grades , labour distribution ,.construction materials ,production of respirators ,vehicle produçtion , etc,ect 

So this was pie in the sky ....according to the g and t Oxford brigade ....

 

Send me the TNA reference please, so I can read and interpret this objectively.

[Ashcollection]

8 minutes ago, andy brown said:

A few excerpts from..

August 1948 cabinet preparations for defence

Memorandum by the prime minister

The defence of the United kingdom

Defence of essential communications

Defence of middle east

Bases for u.s strategic air force in UK and middle east stocking of Airfields in EAST ANGLIA 

Should war break out ,or its threat become imminent at any time in the next six to nine months ,fairly extensive plans have already been prepared ,and are being perfected every week - for a crash mobilisation..

Specific attention to the recall of war time A/A crews where ever possible 

Actions in response to the meetings of foreign ministers in Moscow promote the need to safeguard what we have and under take to supply what will be needed

Anti aircraft ammunition 

The rate of production should be built up to the following level

5.25he.       10.000 per month

3.7mark 1v he 5000per month

3.7mark111 he. 30,000 per month 

Small arms ammunition should be raised from 200 million rounds to 400 million

Bomber airfields ....

Four additional airfields should be prepared in the UK for the use of U/S heavy bombers 

Fighter aircraft 

Additional orders placed for jet fighters venoms and or meteors ,..piston engine fighters held in sock to be bought to a state of readyness and supply's of spares will be required for same...

The lists go on covering everything from steel production shipping refurs ,radar up grades , labour distribution ,.construction materials ,production of respirators ,vehicle produçtion , etc,ect 

So this was pie in the sky ....according to the g and t Oxford brigade ....

 

Yes we all know there where war plans, lots of which are now public, and bunkers all over the place etc etc, not sure how this links with loads of WW2 tanks buried under a concrete slab and future political implications. fill in the dots please Andy we are all dumb here. If Russia invaded not sure how we would did them out after Waterbeach had been hit by a 500Kt warhead. 

[paul connor]

Andy,  please pause, and read the following, stop your internal dialogue, critically analyse and think objectively:

"There hasn't been much other than assumptions and a will to do a demolition on me" - There are no assumptions, the data from Oxford Archaeology is 100% quantifiable. This proves there are no tanks on the site. I am sorry, but that is just scientific fact; denying that you may as well suggest the world is flat and Big Foot is thriving in the Lake District.

"Ever present shadow of Hammond hovering in the background" - I will try and not sound too harsh with this, but your fixation on this MP is not healthy. I am sure they don't even give you a second thought, never mind actively plotting against you. You are fixated, and if you continue to press unwanted attention and deformation of this person online, suggesting corruption and foul-play you may find yourself in trouble with the authorities.

"Just a few showing their frustration" - Yes, I would say you are frustrating people, as your story changes with the wind, and you refuse to accept any evidence at all other than your memories of conversations. Your posts are erratic, irrational and lack context, you are refusing to accept clear evidence when it is presented; and it is clear that even if the aprons were lifted you would adjust your story to suit you bias agenda, suggesting a reason or new location.

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/critical-thinking.html

Please, read the above link, and maybe try and understand how and why your views are subjective, why you are influenced by personal agenda above factual data, and how this directly moulds your interpretation.

 

[Ashcollection]

what was the outcome of Andy's forum post about Cobham Common? it had a similar conspiracy thread to it?