Great War truck Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 Matt I have to congratulate you on a stunning piece of statistical analysis. Just beautiful. A quick question or two though. Where would these 1,000 people eat and drink? Would they be allowed off site and into town during their down time? Is there anything which would prevent them from talking to a bar maid and saying "You would never guess what I have been doing". As the war had ended, would they be allowed to carry cameras and photograph what they had seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 I know the story has changed a bit as we have gone along, but might this be the answer that we have been searching for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 I am joking of course. This picture was taken in Germany. Or was it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Matt W said: So that's my take. Around a thousand men working for 4.2 months supported by British Railways. And only ONE remembers this! 52257Cbm of spoil to be disposed of somewhere in Waterbeach. By the way, Elvington Airfield had a similar problem with water ingress when rebuilt by the USAF at the same time as Waterbeach. Granite wasn't used there either. OH dear how wrong could I have been ? Let me see what.went wrong ? Perhaps I didn't buy a number of tank I'd plates from a heap of approx 1400 the ones my father didn't chisel off of tanks I n1950 the same plates I didn't sell at Sotheby's I didn't get thrown out of national archives I didn't get a threat to lay off by Hammond not did I get a host of communications from him I didn't get into waterbeach I didn't search the place with gpr and use a digger ,I couldn't tell the difference between concrete and granite I didn't post pics of Milton tanks my father was never at Milton or waterbeach nor were.the squddies who worked with him ever there ..certainly stirred the mud up at the bottom ot the pond haven't And guess what the aprons are still ffiinn there. Keep it coming ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt W Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Great War - very valid points, didn't think to take them into account. Another point is an operation that large would be recorded, even in veiled terms, in the relevant Corps histories. I've got the RAOC and RASC books and there is nothing like this in them. And your point about rumour is also an excellent one. I would image the news of the giant hole at Waterbeach would have been round East Anglia in no time! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt W Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Milton was not an AVSD. There were no British tanks there. So yes, you are wrong.. What about all the other men involved? You seriously believe this could have been kept a secret? What will you come up with next? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Matt W said: Milton was not an AVSD. There were no British tanks there. So yes, you are wrong.. What about all the other men involved? You seriously believe this could have been kept a secret? What will you come up with next? Wrong again oh dear Apart from the many references that are on line of the existence of Milton tanks in hunt for information in the outset of my waterbeach quest I came across an elderly gentleman who when demobbed from nation service went to work there he had a clutch of paperwork along with photographs and dated 51-52 he related that they would test tanks on the road through the village and see if they could do 360 degree spins at 30mph when they got past the allotments which now border the A10 and Milton road.one photograph of he and a co worker showed them standing on a tank that they ditched off the road trying out their 360s....also I've posted the pic of the tanks at Milton 1947 8 , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Andy, if you take away oral testimonies from your story, what do you actually have that is quantifiable primary source evidence? As so far within the entire context of this thread it appears to revolve around tales that are subjectively interpreted and bias. A few points I would like to ask: 1. You once were in possession of ID plates from some vehicle, yet somehow, these have been interpreted as buried vehicles and have a direct link to you late father. Yet you found these in a scrap yard, and they were so important in the tale that you sold them. Slightly whimsical links, don't you think? Very subjectively bias to attach to your story, yet are you go-to evidence? 2. Being removed from the TNA - well, may I ask about your conduct there - as if it is similar to your content within this thread, they likely asked you to leave as you were being disruptive to people conducting genuine research? 3. Hammond asking you to desist from communications - Well, again, that is likely your personal conduct, and after being asked to stop persisting a fantasy story, he also was likely genuinely asking you to stop bothering him, after he answered already to the best of his knowledge. 4. GPR use: You suggest you searched the whole site with a GPR, yet, you gained no data on the concrete aprons, yet Oxford Archaeology(OA) did. OA have shared the data set with me and their QGIS and layer, which clearly, quantifiably, and accurately, debunks your entire theory. Why do you not accept that? 5. You suggest at one stage you found files from the WD at TNA (The National Archives), please supply me the TNA reference, I will have the files sent to my work in the morning to see what revelation you located. For an example of oral testimonies, I would like to use Isfield Command Stores (Isfield, Uckfield, Sussex), or, as locals always suggest - Isfield Army Camp. The local stories are of 2000 Canadians camped there in tents. Dunkirk and D-Day both utilising the railway siding for tanks, troops and more. The locals even call it a Canadian camp. It is a local legend, and everyone knows best as their father/grandfather/friend or cat suggests so. A colleague and I were on site prior to demolition as archaeological specialists, and provided plans, costing and pictures of the surveying and later construction of the railway siding from primary source documents. We also presented WD files for the surveying, costings and building of the site, including lists of stores and staff. We also had aerial photos from the RAF from 1940, 42, 44, 45. Where is this going you might ask? Well, it was a field until July 1944. So it did not exist, only in the memories and tales that have become truth in the community, but, they are just tales, hearsay, ridiculous oral testimonies based on no evidence. As for Canadians, well, no units were camped of that scale in the area, nor were they in that village - ORBAT and unit diaries support that from primary evidence. Do you see how tales become fact, yet are based on fantasy? We didn't find any tanks under the concrete pads there either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt W Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Oh dear whatever next? Love to see the photos, but you obviously know nothing about A Vehicles. You would never road test on a public road and a 360 turn at speed would be impossible. Both tracks would shed and the tank would more than likely roll. Plus name one British A vehicle of the Forties / Fifties that could go 30mph. I've done a 280 turn on a 432, but that was on ice. I know a chap who claims he flew across the Atlantic in a Chinook and serviced all the Chieftains at BATUS, doesn't mean I believe him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt W Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 And another who changed batteries on a submarine. Don't believe him either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Having also driven many tracked AFVs I would not have the courage to hard tiller at 30mph! Maybe this was an early "Drift Churchill"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, paul connor said: Having also driven many tracked AFVs I would not have the courage to hard tiller at 30mph! Maybe this was an early "Drift Churchill"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Yes, that shows some plates were sold, that you were likely the seller. That is where this exciting new piece of evidence ends I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 33 minutes ago, paul connor said: Yes, that shows some plates were sold, that you were likely the seller. That is where this exciting new piece of evidence ends I am afraid. Don't be afraid it's alway interesting to see what's on people's minds , the shame is most is of no consequence . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 My reply used the word 'afraid' as an adjective, not in the literal sense of fear of phobia. It was me politely introducing my disagreement to your evidence; stating that context, much like your argument throughout this thread, is missing. As for the rest of your reply, well, it is as illegible as your evidence for buried tanks, unfortunately. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1950 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 This is like a game of chess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 This thread is reminiscent of a group of reasonable people trying to have a rational discussion with a religious fanatic. Such a situation is doomed to failure because the latter is incapable of entertaining the possibility of being wrong. It is however mildly amusing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Yes, indeed. Winston Churchill definition of a fanatic A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Don't mention Churchill, he was in on this from the start! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 We all believe the subject to be absurd yet we cant stop looking. It is like a long drawn out car crash. Every ridiculous claim is given an explanation. Lets see what happens to this one. The father chiselled off 100's of data plates off tanks. Chiselled off, not unscrewed, so they were rivetted on? How long does it take to chisel off one data plate, or hundreds, or the 1,400 that either were or were not chiselled off? He had a long attention span i suppose? He did not at any stage think "Sod this for a game of soldiers, I am off to the pub". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 The RAF did not obtain best agricultural land for Chain Home radar sites or airfields leading up to and during WW2. RAF Dundonald near Irvine is interesting on what they did (quite a few goes at it) - badly waterlogged . Ripped up now and ISTR the site of Olympic Business Park after earlier being a large factory then Trading Estate. However - this was for light military aircraft. In my extensive library - I can only think of a single procedures for runway construction for a badly waterlogged site. . It was built on a farm called Goosepool (that tells the story for starters). It's 20 years since I purchased the book circa. publication date 2003 , it's a weighty tome 295mm x 210mm x 2m , now with a £ weighty asking £$ price (most seemed to end up in Canada and you would probably have to re-import). Not read it since 2003 - so will have to find time to revise. I don't rcall the depth of foundation being so deep or from costly material. From what I recall - ballast brought to site via. a rail sidings built for purpose, lots of work IIRC - longest runway in England for bombers. It was slave labour almost by out of work miners, the unwell/physically impaired and youths (four actually died on the job) , if they didn't accept the £ free pair of boots and get on a taxi truck - then the Ministry of Labour stopped their DOLE. Of course more info. can be gleaned with great difficulty that is not within the book. GOOSEPOOL : The History of RAF and RCAF Middleton-St. George and Teesside Airport by Stanley D. Howes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 I have gone back to the beginning of this story and basically it is a 9 year old boy, whose father is having a 'secret' meeting with important people from the government, War Department or whatever, and he was asked to bring out a dustbin to destroy paperwork .........yet he was told they were going to bury 100's of tanks ........ strikes me he was told a story to fob him off what was really being discussed. If it was so secret, why would you tell a child???? There is no proof of these plates in a scrapyard being connected with this story. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said: I have gone back to the beginning of this story and basically it is a 9 year old boy, whose father is having a 'secret' meeting with important people from the government, War Department or whatever, and he was asked to bring out a dustbin to destroy paperwork .........yet he was told they were going to bury 100's of tanks ........ strikes me he was told a story to fob him off what was really being discussed. If it was so secret, why would you tell a child???? There is no proof of these plates in a scrapyard being connected with this story. It would seem gentlemen that if there is a wrong or right to this it will only be revealed when the aprons are lifted so you will have be content with the fact that until that happens am right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy brown Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 Correction I did not know about tanks and burials when I was nine I just recall the word water beach as I stirred the ashes ,not until some ten years later did he draw the map and explain what was there, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 The GPR data from Oxford Archaeology already proves there is nothing under the apron, only geological deposits. That is your proof right there, which part of that statement do you not understand? I have checked the data myself, or am I mistaken, underqualified or a liar? You are wrong, 100% wrong. There is no debate here! within the boundaries of that site there are no tanks buried. So unless you head there with your own digger and put some there tomorrow, there will still be no tanks there today, tomorrow, or in 50 years. Just to recap - there are no tanks there. PS. No tanks. PPS. Still no tanks. No tanks there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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