Somebody out there knows all about this !!

[andy brown]

On 9/15/2021 at 12:18 PM, MrEd said:

I feel this thread isn’t going to go anywhere tbh. It just doesn’t add up to me. 

Unfortunately that what this thread is a waiting game ,I Answer questions that people ask to the best of my ability until as such time as the aprons are removed will any body know if I'm wrong or right ,I don't control what goes on at this site where their priority is to build house's on a 300 +acre site ,I wish it wasn't just as much as everybody else .

Having said that I live 170 mile round trip from the place and as there is no access to the area in question there isn't much chance of seeing whether or not there is any activity near or on the aprons ,there is however a layby of sorts on the A10 mid way between the traffic lights at Denny end road and the ( going north) business park roundabout ,this layby is approx 1200 metres from the aprons ,in a few weeks the leaves will drop and one should be able to see across  to the aprons , I figure that if it is what I say then they would have to mag off the spare parts that were crushed on top of the tanks ,that would require a fairly large machine which could be seen accros that distance ...layby is really only accessible traveling south as it's on a fast bend ,layby has more than it fair share of deep holes ..

Apron 52 °16' 49" N.   0° 11' 21" E

Layby 52° 16' 59" N   0° 10' 17" E 

Having dealt with this lot ,agents and Hammond I wouldn't trust them more so because of the fortunes involved ..

[11th Armoured]

So, what are you saying now - they're going to remove the 'tanks' in secret, if they can get away with it? And presumably scrap them in secret as well? And presumably backfill the resulting bloody great 'ole in secret so no-one asks awkward questions about why there's suddenly a bloody great 'ole there now? 🤔

If they're going to dig them out anyway, and scrap or sell them anyway, then why, pray tell, aren't they just being upfront about it? Having a load of scrap metal buried on your site isn't going to interfere with planning consent - it's simply ground contamination, nothing more, nothing less. Developers & builders deal with this sort of thing day in, day out - there's no statutory protection for scrap, tanks or otherwise, I'm afraid to say...

[andy brown]

1 hour ago, 11th Armoured said:

So, what are you saying now - they're going to remove the 'tanks' in secret, if they can get away with it? And presumably scrap them in secret as well? And presumably backfill the resulting bloody great 'ole in secret so no-one asks awkward questions about why there's suddenly a bloody great 'ole there now? 🤔

If they're going to dig them out anyway, and scrap or sell them anyway, then why, pray tell, aren't they just being upfront about it? Having a load of scrap metal buried on your site isn't going to interfere with planning consent - it's simply ground contamination, nothing more, nothing less. Developers & builders deal with this sort of thing day in, day out - there's no statutory protection for scrap, tanks or otherwise, I'm afraid to say...

I'm sure your right about what you have pointed out.but there have been many occasions where the first you hear of it is when it's gone ..although I should point out that the one deciding factor in this is the environment agency they hold sway over what gets done and when and the developers have to live with it ..

All that apart my reasons are my reason if there's blame it's all mine ,at the end of the day I'm sure there are many people out there who would like to see ,would like be a witness to something not often seen before it gets spirited away ,there is amongst this load of scrap a wide variety of camouflage colour's what theatre of war did they operate in, did someone's grandad ,great uncle or distant relation live in it for weeks at a time . No I would like to see the mystery unfold in a sane and controlled manner .

Ps I was told they had been decommissionrd but they can't act on my say so can they it all  becomes rather more complicated than drag them out and cart them away doesn't it.

 

[11th Armoured]

13 hours ago, andy brown said:

I'm sure your right about what you have pointed out.but there have been many occasions where the first you hear of it is when it's gone ..although I should point out that the one deciding factor in this is the environment agency they hold sway over what gets done and when and the developers have to live with it ..

All that apart my reasons are my reason if there's blame it's all mine ,at the end of the day I'm sure there are many people out there who would like to see ,would like be a witness to something not often seen before it gets spirited away ,there is amongst this load of scrap a wide variety of camouflage colour's what theatre of war did they operate in, did someone's grandad ,great uncle or distant relation live in it for weeks at a time . No I would like to see the mystery unfold in a sane and controlled manner .

Ps I was told they had been decommissionrd but they can't act on my say so can they it all  becomes rather more complicated than drag them out and cart them away doesn't it.

 

The Environment Agency are just one of the consultees in any planning application - in the case of a proposed residential redevelopment of a brown-field site, their involvement may go a bit further than for Joe Bloggs sticking up a new conservatory, but they usually simply offer an opinion on the potential impact of a development upon the natural environment. This is generally in terms of flooding, etc., but possibly in terms of disposal of contaminated soils if they've been identified by pre-development sampling. They do not have the deciding vote on anything in my experience & are regularly overruled by planners (e.g., in the case of developments that have been given permission on flood plains & the like).

And yes, seeing what to us is interesting history being dug up would be something to look forward to, but to the developers & a great number of people in society at large, it's just a load of scrap, sadly.

Regarding your final paragraph, this is all the more reason for the developers & planners to be upfront about all of this. The last thing they want are surprises that lead to hold-ups to their programme - groundworkers & brickies stood around twiddling their thumbs costs money. So your hints at secrecy & underhand schemes makes no sense at all - sorry.

[Ashcollection]

we will know very soon the hangers and hard standings are going next, the developer would love to find something! and to be honest it would be impossible to keep secret, all those lads working there for contractors have mobile phones and it would be a massive operation to move 325 tanks to a scrap yard where again everyone would have mobile phones. if they exist we will know soon.

[andy brown]

24 minutes ago, 11th Armoured said:

The Environment Agency are just one of the consultees in any planning application - in the case of a proposed residential redevelopment of a brown-field site, their involvement may go a bit further than for Joe Bloggs sticking up a new conservatory, but they usually simply offer an opinion on the potential impact of a development upon the natural environment. This is generally in terms of flooding, etc., but possibly in terms of disposal of contaminated soils if they've been identified by pre-development sampling. They do not have the deciding vote on anything in my experience & are regularly overruled by planners (e.g., in the case of developments that have been given permission on flood plains & the like).

And yes, seeing what to us is interesting history being dug up would be something to look forward to, but to the developers & a great number of people in society at large, it's just a load of scrap, sadly.

Regarding your final paragraph, this is all the more reason for the developers & planners to be upfront about all of this. The last thing they want are surprises that lead to hold-ups to their programme - groundworkers & brickies stood around twiddling their thumbs costs money. So your hints at secrecy & underhand schemes makes no sense at all - sorry.

We could split hairs over this forever and a day ,one thing I found when the plans for the site were first published was the area of my interest would eventually be the playing / sports field to a proposed secondary school and a small part of the school itself...The whole site I think was estimated to take until 2035 to complete some 25000 houses and a railway station so it depends where the burial site figures in the program as to whether or not it features in the near or distant future..

Not that that this has any direct association with waterbeach apart from the people involved .Being blocked from national archives at the time proved to me that I was treading on someone's corns ,in response I started to look at another site that the same company was developing one that I had some historic knowledge of , again it wasn't long before someone became worried that I was looking under rocks that shouldn't be looked under.what transpired was to me very intriguing and got me a verble warning to stop what I was doing .The second site has been part of the mod / war dept for almost or at least one hundred years .There is a great deal I do not know about this second site and was thinking of putting it to the forum on a separate thread but as I'm not flavour of the month in some quarters I thought I might be pushing my luck .... Suffice to say this like waterbeach has all the hallmarks of a longstanding cover up ....

[11th Armoured]

You should seriously consider writing spy novels...

[andy brown]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:14 PM, 11th Armoured said:

You should seriously consider writing spy novels...

In view of the above remark ..I thought it time to introduce the two main players in this saga ,on the left is me and on the right one  Right hon Philip Hammond who at the time the pic was taken June 2016  was the minister of defence .now Lord  Hammond,not often seen out of the cover of darkness .he of the insistence that there are no tanks at waterbeach ,rather in the style of Nixon and his ( there is no cover up with Watergate ,)  this is where he gives me a word of advice (keep your nose out of my business ) businesses !!!! Make of that what you will,providing you haven't been living under a log for the last forty years 

[andy brown]

1 minute ago, andy brown said:

In view of the above remark ..I thought it time to introduce the two main players in this saga ,on the left is me and on the right one  Right hon Philip Hammond who at the time the pic was taken June 2016  was the minister of defence .now Lord  Hammond,not often seen out of the cover of darkness .he of the insistence that there are no tanks at waterbeach ,rather in the style of Nixon and his ( there is no cover up with Watergate ,)  this is where he gives me a word of advice (keep your nose out of my business ) businesses !!!! Make of that what you will,providing you haven't been living under a log for the last forty years 

Remember he had the power to get me blocked from the national archives , you are treading a thin line when you can do that for personal gain mmmmm 25000 houses ..Happy new year..

[andym]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:14 PM, 11th Armoured said:

You should seriously consider writing spy novels...

"The Tank That Never Was"?

[andy brown]

3 hours ago, andym said:

"The Tank That Never Was"?

Plural ....Tanks....

[ruxy]

2016  & much scribe on HMVF  about burried tank(s)   ,  being  BANNED  from the National Archives , in person /on-line ??    then that is a serious matter.

Just a quick check on website of :-

The Local Government & Social Care  OMBUDSMAN

then they can do for 

Planning

Some housing issues

Social care

Some education and schools issues

Children’s services

Housing benefit

Council tax

Transport and highways

Environment and waste

Neighbour nuisance and antisocial behaviour

--------------

Seems much scope for you to get your foot into the door of the NA ,  I believe a copy of the report (sort of a £ free barristers report)  will end up on your door-mat +  the door-mat of your own MP. 

Possibly it will also be shown here  ?    Then a few more may again take an interest into the possibility of WW2 tanks available for restoration ?

[andy brown]

10 hours ago, ruxy said:

2016  & much scribe on HMVF  about burried tank(s)   ,  being  BANNED  from the National Archives , in person /on-line ??    then that is a serious matter.

Just a quick check on website of :-

The Local Government & Social Care  OMBUDSMAN

then they can do for 

Planning

Some housing issues

Social care

Some education and schools issues

Children’s services

Housing benefit

Council tax

Transport and highways

Environment and waste

Neighbour nuisance and antisocial behaviour

--------------

Seems much scope for you to get your foot into the door of the NA ,  I believe a copy of the report (sort of a £ free barristers report)  will end up on your door-mat +  the door-mat of your own MP. 

Possibly it will also be shown here  ?    Then a few more may again take an interest into the possibility of WW2 tanks available for restoration ?

I thank you for your concern and advice , there had been a number of occasion where I had mulled over the option of the ombudsman , although I gauged that at the time to be a knee jerk reaction born out of frustration and that I felt was more to do with Hammond than the N/A.

At the risk of repeating myself it might be as well to point out that some months after the refusal to read episode I again returned to N/A with completely different subject matter ,on arrival telling the receptionist the reason for my visit she replied "Oh by the way Mr Brown those files you wished to view on your last visit are now available, What's with the change of heart I thought this place has a protocol written in stone ,,,didn't seem kosher ,but given directions upstairs to the holder of my sought after files, signed for and handed one tatty hard back folder within which were some seven or eight hard card separators each containing a new adhesive label all with the legend (weeded considered not in the public interest ) a contradiction from the data sheet on these files I had printed off from their own web site where in the access column it clearly stated  ( in public domain) IE open to all....so it became fairly obvious they they had realised that in blanking me in the first instance had left them as the patsy ...so to extracate themselves from a questionable excuse of refusal not of there making bought into play one of their own qualifications (we reserve the right to withhold ) though even this flew in the face of their supposed integrity ...bottom line They had been used..... And were squirming........ 

Now this just shows how Hammond will and does use people and supposed upstanding organisations to his own end irrespective of the damage it is likely to inflict on any unsuspecting soul who had never put a foot wrong in their lives ..so taking N/A on may dig a hole you couldn't climb out of unless one can nail Hammond at the same time ......

Thanks Andy.B.......

[ruxy]

I am well aware of corruption in high. gov. positions (and more so in local gov).   I have actually had a MP use  H of P  notepaper , as evidence against self in the County Court (my solicitor only gave me a copy for a surprise the day prior to the hearing  & I don't think my barrister was informed earlier.  It was a case of very late disclosure .   The judge determined there were other liars besides when they gave evidence under oath.

[ruxy]

The National Archives and the 'alleged'  by author Martin Allen  FAKE files inserted.   I followed this and had grave doubts  50/50  , however the book concerned Martin Allen did have a late edition printed but it was done in north America - this included  an addendum where the author stated his views  - that IMHO could have veracity.  I had to import this edition, I think advantage Allen.   That being the case - was it Mi6 who loaded very poor quality fake docs. to more lay the blame on Allen , in any case he was expected to be prosecuted but it did not happen. 

                      I am aware of another book that is to be launched early 2022 by different author(s) ,  I am aware of the general drift but security presently is very tight.   I am thinking there is a possibility of new information with sound veracity that could support what Martin Allen had to say in his addendum.   This could also affect past/present staffing of the N.A.

                   However - as stated , as yet I am awaiting more details, the press was going to roll before X'mas 2021 ,  it seems as soon as the plates are set - there is a Stop Press.

[andy brown]

22 hours ago, ruxy said:

The National Archives and the 'alleged'  by author Martin Allen  FAKE files inserted.   I followed this and had grave doubts  50/50  , however the book concerned Martin Allen did have a late edition printed but it was done in north America - this included  an addendum where the author stated his views  - that IMHO could have veracity.  I had to import this edition, I think advantage Allen.   That being the case - was it Mi6 who loaded very poor quality fake docs. to more lay the blame on Allen , in any case he was expected to be prosecuted but it did not happen. 

                      I am aware of another book that is to be launched early 2022 by different author(s) ,  I am aware of the general drift but security presently is very tight.   I am thinking there is a possibility of new information with sound veracity that could support what Martin Allen had to say in his addendum.   This could also affect past/present staffing of the N.A.

                   However - as stated , as yet I am awaiting more details, the press was going to roll before X'mas 2021 ,  it seems as soon as the plates are set - there is a Stop Press.

With defence to all of you that have have followed this thread over the ,what is now years ,I thank you for your patience there have been many questions that I did not or do not have the answer to regarding the whys and wherefores ,one that stands out above all others is ( why if they are there don't they dig them up?) ..

Now I'm am surprised that nobody twigged the reason for this apart from ( cause they can't be there ) little else seemed to come to the fore,

Now sit and think this through ,Put yourself in Hammond's place ,you have a goal and you can see a gap in the fabric of governance a gap that few if any have ever taken advantage of , but you.need to be able to open doors to take advantage of your of you revolutionary idea ,so a key is needed one you haven't got but your idea could prove as useful as a key all you need is an IOU ticket book ,which state ( promise to pay the bearer ) you tear of ticket hand it to the key bearer ,door opens and you scuttle off through the corridors of power opening each and every door with an IOU pop.  Your head round say hi and move on until you get to a door that says Minister of Defense you enter sit at the desk look out of the window and all you can see are brown field sites where once there had been armies of protectors of the realm but alas no more ,rather than waste the opportunity you reach for you IOU's and get these places a clean bill of health wipe their faces and offer them up to investors ,now you can pay back the IOU,s , home and dry ..until it turns out you may have acted with to much haste in on or two areas ,it seem some creep that didn't have an IOU might have wrong footed you ,bit late for IOU's with this one perhaps better to sit this one out ,can't have all those IOU,s claiming I pulled a scam by selling on iffy sites wouldnt do your image a lot of good but you could always swop your remaining tickets for a seat in the upper house ......

[andy brown]

Just now, andy brown said:

With defence to all of you that have have followed this thread over the ,what is now years ,I thank you for your patience there have been many questions that I did not or do not have the answer to regarding the whys and wherefores ,one that stands out above all others is ( why if they are there don't they dig them up?) ..

Now I'm am surprised that nobody twigged the reason for this apart from ( cause they can't be there ) little else seemed to come to the fore,

Now sit and think this through ,Put yourself in Hammond's place ,you have a goal and you can see a gap in the fabric of governance a gap that few if any have ever taken advantage of , but you.need to be able to open doors to take advantage of your of you revolutionary idea ,so a key is needed one you haven't got but your idea could prove as useful as a key all you need is an IOU ticket book ,which state ( promise to pay the bearer ) you tear of ticket hand it to the key bearer ,door opens and you scuttle off through the corridors of power opening each and every door with an IOU pop.  Your head round say hi and move on until you get to a door that says Minister of Defense you enter sit at the desk look out of the window and all you can see are brown field sites where once there had been armies of protectors of the realm but alas no more ,rather than waste the opportunity you reach for you IOU's and get these places a clean bill of health wipe their faces and offer them up to investors ,now you can pay back the IOU,s , home and dry ..until it turns out you may have acted with to much haste in on or two areas ,it seem some creep that didn't have an IOU might have wrong footed you ,bit late for IOU's with this one perhaps better to sit this one out ,can't have all those IOU,s claiming I pulled a scam by selling on iffy sites wouldnt do your image a lot of good but you could always swop your remaining tickets for a seat in the upper house ......

Sorry second word should read defrance ....

[Ashcollection]

So it is a conspiracy then🙂. and yes lots of money changes hands. and yes they build really crappy houses. so what's the big issue. Would you rather leave the derelict airfields and derelict vandalised relics and build all these crappy houses on green field sites? I have it on very good authority that if they find these tanks they will be very excited!

[andy brown]

10 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

So it is a conspiracy then🙂. and yes lots of money changes hands. and yes they build really crappy houses. so what's the big issue. Would you rather leave the derelict airfields and derelict vandalised relics and build all these crappy houses on green field sites? I have it on very good authority that if they find these tanks they will be very excited!

Who is they ?  Missed my point ,had the search been the area it was in ww2  they may have found them ,but it only covered an area that didn't include the burial site...so hence egg on the face of the guy in charge ..and no I'm not averse to the vacant land being used for housing I'm just pointing out how and why they haven't been revealed ...also in passing I could not punch through the concrete with ground penetrating radar ,the munition team on the day agreed that they could not either although the area was outside their brief to check anyway .so it was left as the on site bomb disposal corporal put it ( if they eventually hit something with the JCB bucket we will come back and attend to it ..

[Matt W]

I've been following this thread since it started and have decided to add my thoughts on it. Depending on how Igo this may a very long post!

The main point as I understand it is that 326 Churchill tanks were buried at Waterbeach airfield and there has been a Government cover up. 

First, here are a couple of photos - 

These show 41 Armoured Vehicle Depot RAOC at Burn near Selby. The depot was situated on the former RAF Burn airfield, these photos were taken in 1952. From the above you can see that each dot on the runway is a vehicle. At one point there were approximately 8000 vehicles stored in the Depot. 

Some years ago I did some research at the Tank Museum checking the A Vehicle record cards for vehicles stored at 41AVD. Unfortunately I only had a morning before being dragged off to Monkey World with the family! Although the number of cards checked was small the results were interesting - 

Vehicle Type	Quantity
ACV 6x6 HP CP	9
AEC Armoured Car Mk 3	7
AEC Armoured Car Mk 3 6Pdr	4
Carrier 3" Mortar	4
Carrier Universal	6
Carrier Wasp	5
Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern)	6
Churchill ARV Mk 2	3
Churchill AVRE Mk 3	2
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	56
Churchill AVRE Mk 6	11
Churchill Mk 10	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	60
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	18
Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured	2
Churchill Mk 5	38
Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour	1
Churchill Mk 6	152
Churchill Mk 6 Flail	3
Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile	3
Churchill Mk 8	12
Churchill Mk 8 Crocodile	3
Comet 1B	9
Cromwell Mk 4 FS	4
Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Command	1
Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Control	1
Cromwell Mk 6	20
Cromwell Mk 7	4
Ram 25Pdr	23
Ram APC 2	3
Ram GPO	5
Sexton 25Pdr	1
Sherman BARV	11
Sherman Dozer	4
Sherman Mk 1C	10
Sherman Mk 2	10
Sherman Mk V Crab II	5
Sherman Mk V DD	11
Valentine Bridgelayer	3
Grand Total	533

 

TBC in part 2 

[Matt W]

Part 2

As above, a fair selection of A vehicles used. As an aside, these cards are freely available at the Tank Museum for inspection, no cover up there. 

These are the dates that the above vehicles were Struck Off Strength (SoS) - 

Year SoS	Quantity
1952	15
Sherman Mk 1C	10
Sherman Mk V Crab II	5
1953	29
Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern)	3
Churchill Mk 6	14
Churchill Mk 8	12
1954	140
Carrier Universal	6
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	5
Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured	2
Churchill Mk 6	127
1955	76
Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern)	3
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	1
Churchill Mk 10	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	6
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	15
Churchill Mk 5	32
Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour	1
Churchill Mk 6	10
Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Command	1
Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Control	1
Valentine Bridgelayer	3
1956	7
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	1
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	2
Churchill Mk 6	1
1957	28
Cromwell Mk 4 FS	4
Cromwell Mk 7	1
Ram 25Pdr	23
1958	67
Carrier Wasp	5
Churchill ARV Mk 2	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	48
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	1
Churchill Mk 5	4
Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile	3
Cromwell Mk 7	3
1959	10
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	1
Comet 1B	9

And these are the SoS dates particularly for the Churchills - 

Year SoS	Quantity
1953	29
Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern)	3
Churchill Mk 6	14
Churchill Mk 8	12
1954	134
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	5
Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured	2
Churchill Mk 6	127
1955	71
Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern)	3
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	1
Churchill Mk 10	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	6
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	15
Churchill Mk 5	32
Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour	1
Churchill Mk 6	10
1956	7
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	1
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	2
Churchill Mk 6	1
1958	59
Churchill ARV Mk 2	3
Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr	48
Churchill Mk 4 75mm	1
Churchill Mk 5	4
Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile	3
1959	1
Churchill AVRE Mk 4	1

[Matt W]

Part 3

As we can see above, there was no rush to dispose of any vehicles. The depot was alongside the old East Coast Main Line so the vehicles were in full view to the public (My late Father described it as an field covered in rusty tanks). This obviously upset some people and there were a number of exchanges in the House of Commons - 

Stored Tanks and Vehicles, Yorkshire

HC Deb 12 February 1957 vol 564 c1057 1057

§ 17. Mr. Shinwell

Asked the Secretary of State for War the number of tanks and Army vehicles stored in the open between Doncaster and York and for what purpose they are being maintained.

§ Mr. Hare

About 8,000. Over 3,000 of these are being disposed of. The balance are working stocks and Army reserves.

§ Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of this junk has been lying there for the last five or six years, and that what is happening is that many of these vehicles have been sent away for repair and brought back to that depot again? Is he also aware that the manpower used in that depot is far in excess of what is required, and that the whole thing is a positive scandal? Why does he not put a stop to it?

§ Mr. Hare

The right hon. Gentleman has said it has been there for five or six years. I think that probably it was there even in his time. I can assure him that I am certainly not satisfied with the general position. I am going into all this, and hope to be able to take steps in respect of disposals, and to see that as far as possible no unnecessary stocks are retained.

§ Mr. Chetwynd

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how these vehicles are being disposed of and for what purpose? Are they treated as scrap, or are they disposed of for some military purpose?

§ Mr. Hare

The Ministry of Supply is responsible for the actual technique of disposal, which is left to its judgment.

 

HC Deb 02 April 1957 vol 568 cc224-5 224

§ 29. Mr. Shinwell

Asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet disposed of the 8,000 tanks and other vehicles situated between Doncaster and Selby.

225

§ Mr. John Hare

Since the right hon. Gentleman asked a similar Question about this depot on 12th February, 600 wheeled vehicles have been disposed of and the sale of 400 more is beginning this month. One thousand eight hundred tanks and other fighting vehicles are in the process of being sold or prepared for sale.

§ Mr. Shinwell

Can the Minister say whether the same maintenance staff is being retained there?

§ Mr. Hare

I will certainly look into that point. This ordnance depot was started by the right hon. Gentleman in 1948 or 1949. We cannot hope to close it in the immediate future, but we are running down large quantities of vehicles in the immediate future.

§ Mr. Osborne

Can my right hon. Friend say what price he got for the vehicles being sold, and how much has been lost on them, compared with what they cost?

§ Mr. Hare

Without notice I cannot do that. If my hon. Friend will write to me I will try to obtain the information for him.

 

HC Deb 22 April 1959 vol 604 c383 383

§ 32. Mr. Shinwell

Asked the Secretary of State for War whether the tank and vehicle depot near Selby has now been cleared; and what is to be its future use.

§ Mr. H. Fraser

The depot, which was originally an airfield, has been cleared and is being returned to the Air Ministry. I understand that it will be put up for disposal.

§ Mr. Shinwell

Have all the tanks and vehicles which were regarded as obsolete on this site been sold or have they been transferred to some other depot, and if so, where?

§ Mr. Fraser

They have been disposed of by the Ministry of Supply. There are 8,000 vehicles concerned; they have been sold, in some cases for scrap, and others have been disposed of elsewhere. On the more general question of the disposal of stores, I am glad to be able to inform the right hon. Gentleman that in the last two years thirty-nine ordnance depots have been closed and we are closing twelve more this year.

[Matt W]

Part 4

"Junk" and "Scandal"!

The main point of all this is that there seems to have been no rush to dispose of a substantial number of A vehicles and that the War Office had to be prompted to get rid of them by the Government. Why were 48 Churchill Mk4 6Pdrs retained until 1958? This was a tank that was obsolete in 1945! 

As a further point, all the cards checked (With one exception - a Sherman sent as a hard target to RAF Skipwith range) showed that the vehicles had been sold for scrap. With the shortages of metals and the Sterling exchange rate it's a wonder that most of these vehicles lasted well into the 1950s.

Many of the vehicles were scrapped by Thomas Ward of Sheffield. I did contact their researcher to see if any records remain but the archives are still being catalogued. The researcher did send a nice image from the company archive -

 

[Matt W]

Last part!

I admit that the figures above are only a small sample, that all the dates/VRNs are after the Post War renumbering and these are the figure for only one RAOC vehicle depot. However, I think the main points are these -

1) There was no rush by the War Office to dispose of vehicles.

2) The Churchill tanks were retained in storage well into the 1950s

3) The tanks were obsolete, but the War Office had to be pressured to dispose of them

4) That all the vehicles were recycled as scrap due to metal shortages

As such, I don't believe the Waterbeach story for a minute. I've heard similar stories regarding CVD Ashchurch (Crates of Jeeps buried under the main square) and 17 BVD Monchengladbach (Wehrmacht vehicles buried under the trailer park). Just urban myths.

I'm going to leave the last word to a member of 41 AVD -

May 1959 4 Vehicle Group, Selby

There were a number of heavy hearts amongst the few who

were left as we watched the Tank Transporter rumble out of the

Gate bearing the last tank to the Breaker's Yard, after twelve

months of hard work, during which time many thousands of

A and B Vehicles have been backloaded or sold by

Auction. The awful feeling of emptiness and silence has begun

to take its effect—it isn't a very nice feeling after the bustle

and noise one normally associates with a busy Vehicle Depot.

[Adrian Barrell]

Nice research Matt. That last photo shows Sherman Is, the one in front a Ic, likely three of the 10 mentioned in the text.