question Pink diesel

[casper]

Hi guys, have heard all sorts of, yes you can, no you cant arguments about the use of pink diesel in historic vehicles's, namely a 1941 recovery vehicle with a retrofit diesel engine on the road.

 

Anyone know the definative answer ??

 

I tried HMRC and couldn't get through.

 

RGDS

 

Casper.

[robin craig]

Getting caught doing so will land you in a world of hurt you cant even imagine the depths of.

 

Dont

 

R

[Marmite!!]

 

Vehicles legally allowed to use red diesel

1.1 Unlicensed vehicles not used on public roads

(1) A vehicle is an excepted vehicle while:

(a) it is not used on a public road, and

(b) no licence under the vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 is in force in respect

of it.

(2) A vehicle in respect of which there is a current certificate or document in the form

of a licence issued under the regulations under section 22(2) of the Vehicle excise and

Registration Act 1994 shall be treated for the purposes of sub-paragraph (1) above as a

vehicle in respect of which a licence under that Act is in force.

1.2 Tractors

(1) A vehicle is an excepted vehicle if it is an agricultural tractor.

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "agricultural tractor" means a tractor used on public

roads solely for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture, forestry or activities

falling within sub paragraph (3) below.

(3) The activities falling within this sub-paragraph are:

(a) cutting verges bordering public roads;

(b) cutting hedges or trees bordering public roads or bordering verges which border

public roads.

1.3 Light agricultural vehicles

(1) A vehicle is an excepted vehicle if it is a light agricultural vehicle.

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "light agricultural vehicle" means a vehicle which:

(a) has a revenue weight not exceeding 1,000 kilograms,

(b) is designed and constructed so as to seat only the driver,

© is designed and constructed primarily for use otherwise than on roads, and

(d) is used solely for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry.

(3) In sub paragraph (2)(a) above "revenue weight" has the meaning given by section

60A of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.

1.4 Agricultural engines

An agricultural engine is an excepted vehicle.

1.5 Vehicles used between different parts of the land

A vehicle is an excepted vehicle:

(a) it is used only for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry;

(b) it is used on public roads only in passing between different areas of land occupied

by the same person;

© the distance it travels on public roads in passing between any two such areas does

not exceed 1.5 kilometres; and

(d) the vehicle has a vehicle excise licence as a limited use vehicle.

If the vehicle is taxed for the road without limited use categorization, even if only used

for the purposes outlined in this category, we would expect it to run on fully duty paid

fuel. If it is untaxed, it is not an excepted vehicle when used as public roads as per item

1.

1.6 Mowing machines

A mowing machine is an excepted vehicle.

1.7 Snow clearing vehicles

A vehicle is an excepted vehicle when it is:

(a) being used, or

(b) going to or from the place where it is to be or has been used, for the purpose of

clearing snow from public roads by means of a snow plough or similar device (whether

or not forming part of the vehicle).

1.8 Gritters

A vehicle is an excepted vehicle if it is constructed or adapted, and used, solely for the

conveyance of machinery for spreading material on roads to deal with frost, ice or

snow (with or without articles or material used for the purposes of the machinery).

1.9 Mobile cranes

 

 

(1) A mobile crane is an excepted vehicle

 

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "mobile crane" means a vehicle which is designed and

constructed as a mobile crane and which:

(a) is used on public roads only as a crane in connection with work carried on at a site

in the immediate vicinity or for the purpose of proceeding to and from a place where it

is to be or has been used as a crane, and

(b) when so proceeding does not carry any load except such as is necessary for it's

propulsion or equipment.

1.10 Digging machines

(1) A digging machine is an excepted vehicle.

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "digging machine" means a vehicle which is designed,

constructed and used for the purpose of trench digging, or any kind of excavating or

shovelling work, and which:

(a) is used on public roads only for that purpose or for the purpose of proceeding to

and from the place where it is to be or has been used for that purpose, and

(b) when so proceeding does not carry any load except such as is necessary for its

propulsion or equipment.

1.11 Works trucks

(1) A works truck is an excepted vehicle.

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "works truck" means a goods vehicle which is designed

for use in private premises and is used on public road only:

(a) for carrying goods between private premises and a vehicle on a road within one

kilometre of those premises,

(b) in passing from one part of private premises to another,

© in passing between private premises and other private premises in a case where the

premises are within one kilometre of each other, or

(d) in connection with road works at the site of the works or within one kilometre of the

site of the works.

(3) In sub-paragraph (2) above "goods vehicle" means a vehicle constructed or

adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description,

whether in the course of trade or not.

1.12 Road construction vehicles

(1) A vehicle is an excepted if it is:

(a) a road construction vehicle, and

(b) used or kept solely for the conveyance of built in road construction machinery (with

or without articles or material used for the purposes of the machinery).

(2) In sub paragraph (1) above "road construction vehicle" means a vehicle:

(a) which is constructed or adapted for use for the conveyance of built-in road

construction machinery, and

(b) which is not constructed or adapted for the conveyance of any other load except

articles and material used for the purposes of such machinery.

(3) In sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) above "built-in road construction machinery" in

relation to a vehicle means road construction machinery built in as part of, or

permanently attached to, the vehicle.

(4) In sub-paragraph (3) above "road construction machinery" means a machine or

device suitable for use for the construction or repair of roads and used for no purpose

other than the construction or repair of roads.

1.13 Road rollers

A road roller is an excepted vehicle.

8.14 Interpretation

In this schedule "public road" means a road which is repairable at the public expense.

 

 

[fv1609]

....and don't think that using it in a tractor makes you immune from prosecution. I remember one year at Great Dorset Steam Fair that HMRC were dipping the tanks of many vehicles coming into the showground. This obviously was to catch out those that use it in their diesel cars.

 

They were also dipping tanks of tractors that under normal circumstances could use it legitimately. But a steam fair is not an agricultural purpose not even in a ploughing match it seems!

[glcaines]

I don't know what the UK penalties are for using red diesel, but a friend of mine was arrested and received a fine of $3000.00 USD in Alabama for using untaxed diesel fuel.

[Nick Johns]

Hi guys, have heard all sorts of, yes you can, no you cant arguments about the use of pink diesel in historic vehicles's, namely a 1941 recovery vehicle with a retrofit diesel engine on the road.

 

Anyone know the definative answer ??

 

.

 

NO..its illegal.. a heavy fine and vehicle impounded if youre caught !!! ...You can't even use untaxed red diesel in private diesel powered boats now

Edited June 30, 2010 by Nick Johns

[Sean N]

...You can't even use in private diesel powered boats now

 

You sure? Why not? Has the tax now become fuel duty rather than road fuel duty?

[andym]

So do these restrictions only apply to red diesel or to any untaxed fuel?

[Marmite!!]

So do these restrictions only apply to red diesel or to any untaxed fuel?

Applies to all rebated Fuels.. plenty of info on HM Revenue & Customs website

[ArtistsRifles]

You sure? Why not? Has the tax now become fuel duty rather than road fuel duty?

 

Been that for years now I fear!

[Nick Johns]

You sure? Why not? Has the tax now become fuel duty rather than road fuel duty?

 

Yes I am sure, revenue laws changed a couple of years ago, pleasure craft now pay duty on the fuel

Edited July 1, 2010 by Nick Johns

[cosrec]

The fine for first time offenders in non commercial vehicles is £500 on the spot plus any towing fees to have vehicle removed of public road. Plus any vehicles with the same owner will usually be dipped at the same time. Second offence i think is unlimited but as a start duty is calculated at a rate of how much desiel will have been used during ownership of vehicle and how much you can produce recipts for going back seven years. Also watch it when buying direct from mod One we had came with a full tank but a quick smell told it was kerosene and as such if caught driving it would have been classed as above

[radiomike7]

You cannot use it legally.

 

Not strictly true, any road vehicle can be run on red diesel providing the relevant duty is paid.

 

Red diesel contains not just a dye but a chemical marker that links it back to a supplier, evidence of both will remain in the fuel system for some time.

[Marmite!!]

Not strictly true, any road vehicle can be run on red diesel providing the relevant duty is paid.

 

They dip your tank & you have red your nicked.. simple

[N.O.S.]

One example (albeit a bit academic) of what Mike is refering to was the last fuel shortage - I got dispensation to use red diesel in our road vehicles but we had to declare the usage and pay duty. Also had to carry the paperwork around in vehicles for 12 months as even very dilute traces of red diesel can be detected.

 

For historic vehicle tax and recreation use, simple anwer is NO

[Mk3iain]

Definite no.

A friend was parking her Disco outside a village shop ready to pop in and was approached by the HMRC wanting to test her fuel. They drew some from a fuel pipe on the engine!

I also heard of a guy driving a company van at the weekend who ran out of fuel and used a can in the back of the van (this is a construction/civil engineering company) it was red diesel, just down the road he ran into a roadside check. Nicked! The company has hundreds of vehicles on the road and a huge amount of plant. It was down to them to prove that they had used rebated fuel on the road for I think the last 5 years. HMRC gave them the benifit of the doubt on this occasion and find them £1000 and returned their van. It could have been far worse as it is down to the person/company to prove that you have paid duty on all road vehicles for a given period (5 years I think) also they could have impounded all their vehicles!

I heard this from his manager who was about to tell the MD that actually they had breakdown cover that included running out of fuel...oops

[cosrec]

have many stories about red diesel as we tow lots of vehicles for HMCR.

A Transit twin wheeler was stopped in a road side check suspected of being over weight. while awaiting to go over scales driver sneeked of and was never seen again.

In the back of it was many modern iso tanks all full of central heating oil. long hoses batteries and electric pump and cordless tank drill. It turned out the truck had been reported stolen a year previous and was on false plates. it had been taken from a rental company and the truck was running on red derv.

Because of insurance excess the rental co had stood the loss of the vehicle their selves. It took 4 1/2 months to get sorted out with HMCR while rest of vehicles in fleet where tested and recipts produced.

They then had to pay to have vehicle towed about 300 miles back to there yard in a northen scottish town

HMRC show no mercy when it comes to tax evasion

[radiomike7]

They dip your tank & you have red your nicked.. simple

 

I think you are wrong Lee but I will try to get an answer, the offence is tax avoidance not the colour of the fuel. If the tax has been paid there has been no offence comitted. The same is true for marine bunkering facilities, they will sell private users red diesel, work out the percentage propulsion/non propulsion usage, add the relevant duty and provide a tax receipt.

[Degsy]

Definite no.

A friend was parking her Disco outside a village shop ready to pop in and was approached by the HMRC wanting to test her fuel. They drew some from a fuel pipe on the engine!

I also heard of a guy driving a company van at the weekend who ran out of fuel and used a can in the back of the van (this is a construction/civil engineering company) it was red diesel, just down the road he ran into a roadside check. Nicked! The company has hundreds of vehicles on the road and a huge amount of plant. It was down to them to prove that they had used rebated fuel on the road for I think the last 5 years. HMRC gave them the benifit of the doubt on this occasion and find them £1000 and returned their van. It could have been far worse as it is down to the person/company to prove that you have paid duty on all road vehicles for a given period (5 years I think) also they could have impounded all their vehicles!

I heard this from his manager who was about to tell the MD that actually they had breakdown cover that included running out of fuel...oops

 

 

They drew fuel from the pipe as it has been quite common practice to fit a concealed tank to run on red diesel whilst having white in the normal tank so no problems would be apparent when the tank was dipped.

[abn deuce]

Seems like a good way to eliminate your compation by putting a bit of red diesel in the fellows tank and then call the authorities with the offenders plate # they get to try and prove their innocence with all the documents turning their life upside down or vehicles taken away .

[cosrec]

"They drew fuel from the pipe as it has been quite common practice to fit a concealed tank to run on red diesel whilst having white in the normal tank so no problems would be apparent when the tank was dipped."

 

 

Some fridge artics on long runs used to have 3000l belly tanks on tailer to run fridges on red derv. I have seen many which had the third (blue airline) piped to supply diesel to tractor unit when running continental. They still used to get caught when entering UK as customs would unplug and smell blue airline then look for markers of dye in filter bowls.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Marmite!!
quote tags

[ChasSomT.]

Re FV1609s reply (Post4) and the dipping of tractors at the GDSF

- What, even trailered-in tractors? If I owned say a 432, Not registered and Never used on the road, is it the case that I couldn't run it on my own land without paying FULL fuel duty on whatever I was running it on?

 

What Has this country come to? Grr, Tsk Tsk

 

Disgusted of Leomington Spa!

[fv1609]

the dipping of tractors at the GDSF - What, even trailered-in tractors?

 

Oh yes! I assume the view is that none of the activities at a steam fair fall within their view of legitimate agricultural purposes.

[cosrec]

they will only dip on public roads or if they have evidence of a vehicle being used on public roads. I think what the poster meant was they were dipping as they came through the gates after being on a public road. You can use red derv sump oil kerosene cooking fat what ever you like on private land.

[Diesel demon]

Re FV1609s reply (Post4) and the dipping of tractors at the GDSF

- What, even trailered-in tractors? If I owned say a 432, Not registered and Never used on the road, is it the case that I couldn't run it on my own land without paying FULL fuel duty on whatever I was running it on?

 

What Has this country come to? Grr, Tsk Tsk

 

Disgusted of Leomington Spa!

 

Hello disgusted..Ime Paul and also am disguted in Leamington Spa (with a 432)