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Adrian Barrell

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This is the very reason why i painted my scammell in the deep red colour it is now. The whole army dress up thing is not for me so we will hopefully park up with the commercials. its just that i feel uncomfortabe around these people and having several mates in the forces and knowing what they have to go through i don't think any one should be alowed to wear a uniform unless they earned the right in the forces. Most of these chaps look like they would'nt last 2 mins in the army.

Show me the tank, tell me how the recovery trucks worked, Let me look at the guns then give me a history book and let me see and read about the men that used them and the ones that never came home.

 

I don't want to upset anyone it's only my opinion it's not a problem for me to walk past of look at something else.

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I'm a bit peripheral to this as I consider myself a motorcyclist first and foremost. I did run an ex-Recklinghausen stock LHD 109 for some years so I suppose that I must have a liking for military type vehicles but if I didn't have a WD Norton, I'd be more than happy with a pre-war one (Overhead camshaft please !)

 

I find old things in general and old vehicles in particular fascinating and I particularly like the rebuild stories like GWT's Dennis rebuild on here. Its WW1 origins add the spice but I'd still read every word if it was pre-war civvy.

 

I do have an interest in the history of, and immense respect for, the British army so an MV is a nice way of combining that but I could do either one without the other.

 

I'm not sure about the dressing up thing. I really worry that if I tried it, I'd hear my pre-war regular ex-RSM grandfather calling me a daft bugger and I respected him too much for that.

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I personally find the living history part of our hobby entertaining as we Brits have a reputation for eccentricity and I think this would fit in with this reputation ! I however am only really interested in the wierd and wonderfull vehicles that mans desire to wage war on each other seems to produce ! I would feel odd wearing a uniform which I have no connection with ( I dislike wearing the one I'm issued with at work most of the time ) :-D ! Most of my interests are around mechanical machinery and anything old and mechanical normally gets me going (much to the amusement of most of my friends ) ! I do think without the people who enjoy dressing up in period costume War and Peace type shows would lack something but I also enjoy shows dedicated purely to the vehicles ! Guess I'm easily pleased ! I would also add that I took my Great Uncle to Bovington Tankfest and War and Peace a couple of years ago and was a little worried how he would find the battle re-enactments as my Great Aunt had told me how he had been affected by what now is called Post Traumatic Stress after WW2 as he served in the Desert Rats and the Italian campaigns driving tanks and had some very traumatic experiences as you can imagine ! Much to my relief he found them very entertaining ! He was very pleased to see the Tiger 1 and Jagd Panther as he had not come across them in the war ! So in my view there is room for both ! :-D

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Hi

I think that we walk a very narrow tight-rope. We must remember the horrors of conflict in the hope that we may avoid a repetition but we must not glorify matters generally.

When I was a child my father would not even let me wear his naval officer's cap because he felt so strongly about who should wear uniform.I still feel a bit 'awkward' in green especially as there are current conflicts that we are involved in. However I think that wearing green generally does add to the atmosphere of the show.

Ultimately I think that we can countenance anything that does not cause offence to any of the Veterans.

Although all my immediate relatives were involved in the Forces going back to the Boer War, the nearest I would want to get to incoming rounds was butt marking at Bisley!

Surely the simple message is to enjoy all aspects of militaria as long as it does not give offence.

M

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I think we are into 'How many angels Dance on the Head of a Pin?' country. Who isn't intrested in talking to vetrans? There is the history intrest. If you don't know one end of a spanner from another you shouldn't own a military vehicle. If a member of the public asks a genuine question (It does happen, ocassionally) about a vehicle or what it would have been used for surley they deserve an intillgent answer?

 

If you look at the spread of information and variety of posts on the forum, you see the depth of knowledge. As for , I'll call it uneasyness, about certain Nationallity's being potrayed. That has to be down to the individual. But tolerance is important in our hobby, every conflict has at least two sides, and they are 'MILITARY' vehicles etc. (Though I admit to having certain biais)

 

Any good group, wether they call it re-enactment or Living history, will put a lot of work into research, to get things wrong is an insult to those who did it for real. I'd classify a re-enactment as a portrayal of a specific happening, living history as an encouragement to others to learn and understand.

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well as a member of both sections mv owner and living history i for one would never insult any member

:stop:the only thing that gets up my nose is wearing officers rank that you never earnt:stop:

i was a full screw and i doubt if even today in cwp i will ever rise above that but i would never bring the corps into disrepute even thought i have been caught on photo a couple of times joking around:nono:

 

many a time people have come up to me and said we hated you monkeys but we also respected the job you had to do

 

the best praise we have had was last year at southwick park when one of the colonels came over and said he didnt realise we are now living history we will always try to do our best to show what we did properly even thougth we are getting older and a bit more bigger round the waist:shocked:

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Agree about rank. There was some muppet dressed as a US General in Normandy tried to muscle in and 'Inspect' the troops. The local Mayor and a burly Gendarme, convinced him to depart, avant le derriere. Also long hair and earrings etc on males in uniform :shake:

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Hi all,

 

like David Ives, I have got a foot in both camps, I joined Forces80 before I got my rover, now does that make me a living history type with a vehicle? or a military vehicle owner who does living history?

 

I agree with people wearing officers rank without the right to earn it, not on at all. I dont wear any rank at all (never was in, apart from being in the ATC as a Adult Warrant Officer), and I certainly wouldnt wear para wings or pilot wings. As to medals.............(whats with it with all those "yanks")

Thats my personel opinion

 

I think that there is a place for all types in our hobby, regardless of what they do/portray, a bit of tolerance/common sense is what you need.

 

Just my 2 penneth woth

 

TTFN

 

Mark

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there are an awful lot of ex squaddies out there who have seen plenty of action in a Pig.

 

 

No Comment

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....I admit to being detached from the Holocaust because although it was singularly the most monstrous crime of the millennia it wasn't part of my family's experience...... MB

 

So was I, until -

 

An ex REME soldier and I had just unloaded my Scammell at W&P in 2004/5. We stood in the evening rain in total disbelief as a couple of GMCs pulled up outside some tents next door, and a load of thin guys with shaved heads and faded stripey blue pyjamas piled into the trucks which then roared off. We didn't speak for a few minutes after that.

 

Normally I'd have gone "Nice couple of jimmys there!" but this was perhaps the first time I'd witnessed a piece of re-enactment or Living History, in which the correct vehicles played a vital role but yet they were almost invisible to me.

 

Now I've thought long and hard about that incident ever since. I still can't quite get my head around it and find it distasteful - but I must admit it got me thinking seriously for the first time about the holocaust and I won't forget it, so you could say the incident served a very useful purpose.

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I fully agree with the statements from several people on this subject , I think as well that somebody above 30 does not belong in Para uniform , about the german thing , wy do they all want to be SS , if you read a bit of their history I feel very bad and angry . If they even would do it to play the part , but therte are several who mean it 9they believe in it ) , if they take their shirts of they have swastica`s and SS tatoo`s on them , Brrr.

It is the same with these ranks they all have , during the week they are behind the counter of a supermarket , and in the weekend they are enjoying screaming at the non ranks in their group , silly .

I still think vehicle restorers are a different kind of people then Uniform people . I also put on a tank suit when driving a tank , or a green Shirt in a parade , but I am not going to shop with watter bottle on belt , and handgrenades hanging all over me.

During the past years I have met a lot of vets who get tears in their eyes when they see a vehicle they drove for a long time in the war , and they come up to you to show you their fotopgraphs of them and the vehicles in the war , and if you talk to them they respect your neutral clothes , but don`t agree with the fake heroes (as they called them several times)roaring around in their vehicles .

Everybody should do what they want , but a bit of respect would be apropriate.

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Here in the Netherlands the attitude towards german reenactors is ambivalent to say the least. After all we were occupied for 5 years, lost 107.000 jews to the concentration camps and god knows how many civillians and resistance fighters in that period. I simply can't get my head around people wanting to dress up like a wehrmacht trooper and am baffeld by anyone wanting to portray the SS. It's just beyond me.

 

On the other hand, I find it perfectly normal to dress up as a para, in a way this is rather strange.

 

On rank the matter becomes a very grey area indeed. I think there is nothing wrong with reenacors that wear rank insignia, but it's mostly the way rank is used. We at the Ducks do have ranks, our chairmen is a Luitenant and I'm now a T-5 (because I'm the webmaster). We use the rank as a token of gratitude within the group but we derive no power from them and do not try to use them in such a way. Our chairman takes the lead in most things and he is usually our spokesperson so is it strange that he's a Luitenant? I think not.

 

What Tony said about the "general" in Normandy is a prime example of how not to use rank but if used as decoration then it's okay with me.

 

Wearing medals for bravery are a nono but in Class A we do wear the presidential unit citation pin and all wear the colored bars that denote overseas time and locations. Exactly the same for the combat infantry badge or the marksman badges. This is all perfectly acceptable to me (but in essence, what is the difference?).

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Haven't read all the answers (hard to concentrate) but here my 3 cents.

I started with a military vehicle, then collecting and later some living history/re-enactment (RE).

 

Basically these 3 things merge somewhat. MV people wearing correct kit but not really do RE.

RE who use vehicles and original gear.

 

I see on forums RE people slagging people in Jeeps with incorrect kit, the RE's don't realise a lot of MV people wear clothing to complement their vehicle but arent re-enacters.

 

Also RE who drive a Hotchkiss marked as WW2 vehicles, MV people also by the way.

 

I say all 3 world can be seperated but also merge. To each his own I think. The boundaries between those worlds can be indistinct.

 

When driving a Tank with a correct overall and tankhelmet can be seen as Re-enactment but also a MV enthousiats wearing correct kit.

 

Markheliops has bought kit to complement hin Wrecker but I don't think he is a re-enacter? Still he could be one if he wanted. It doesn't mean he has to sleep in a foxhole and eat rations.

 

The DD Valentine owner (sorry forgot your name, memory is shot) doesn't want to wear a uniform. He has a good reasoning behind it which I understand and respect.

 

RESPECT is in fact the keyword here!

Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people.

BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear!

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"RESPECT is in fact the keyword here!

Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people.

BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear!"

 

Well said Enigma... that does it for me!

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"RESPECT is in fact the keyword here!

Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people.

BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear!"

 

Well said Enigma... that does it for me!

 

second that

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Hi all,

 

like David Ives, I have got a foot in both camps, I joined Forces80 before I got my rover, now does that make me a living history type with a vehicle? or a military vehicle owner who does living history?

Mark

 

I am an ex forces Veteran (The government sent me a badge, so it must be true!), then i got the Pig, does that make me "Living History" with an old vehicle, or a military vehicle owner that is living history, i'm certainly no re-enactor.

 

Infact it raises the question the definition "Living History" to me that is a Veteran, like the old Burma Star boys i was with on Armed Forces Day who were also representing the Chindits who were no longer with them, telling me about their time in Burma, that is real living history.

 

People with no previous association to the event they are portraying, dressing up in period costume acting out a particular event, are still to my mind "Re-enactors" i.e. like Sealed Knot or actors in a film, and as accurate as they are, it is still only an act, so whether they are running around in US Airborne gear, or Jackbooted Nazis, it makes no difference to me they are joe public with a hobby, .....so long as they arent trying to pass themselves off as the real deal, or trying to tell a Veteran how it was.

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adam both myself and roger the 118 team were members of the rmp and show what we did in the 80's the good and the bad

i have the 109 and have kitted it out as such

but i also have a field kitchen which is shown in use at shows but i was never a member of the acc but have tried to get he correct kit for that

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This is the most interesting and sophisticated debate we have had on the subject. I have actually learnt a great deal. It is the diversity of us all.

 

Not saying this is the case but I would imagine that some opinions of folks have change since the beginning of this thread - or at least have stopped and taken a view. It is interesting to hear the view point of ex servicemen - who are themselves vets.

 

Keep it up, this is really defining stuff.

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Got to agree with your posting, Jack, on this thread;

 

The one (main) point that keeps coming across, seems to me, RESPECT.

Respect for those who, for what ever reason do, or don't want to wear uniform, festoon their vehicle(or themselves :)) with kit.

Respect for those who used said vehicles in the first place, and (hopfully) encouraging those who are interested to look after we cannot get behind the wheel/tillers, etc.

 

At the weekend we were invited to a Help For Heroes fundraising event, and the interest shown, by both ex serving and non serving folks made the reason I enjoy this hobby so much, all the more special.

 

Great to see differing views being expressed in a friendly non judgemental, ADULT way,..................:-D a TRUE measure of the folks who inhabit these pages.......

 

Andy

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When Adrian started this thread I asked the team to keep from posting in it as it got a bit uncomfortable for me last time - wasn't happy with the way Wayne was treated. But hell this thread has made up for it.

 

Some points made by members who are ex servicemen has got me to question one or two things myself - cracking stuff, lets have more of it!

 

The problem is that I have more questions then answers now:sweat:

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I'm with LoggyDriver as regards the wearing of DPM whilst using/with the vehicle. I served with both 215 Sqdn RCT (VR) and 21 Artists Rifles ® for a number of years - and thus feel I am "qualified" to wear either of the beret, stable belt etc. Mainly the RCT one as 21 never, to my knowledge ever used Stalwarts!! :) No rank or skill/trade badges because I can't be bothered with that. (And the Gov't sent me my Vets badge too Adam!! Makes me feel a bit old though - having a pensioners ID card from Fords and a Veterans badge from the Gov't...:) )

 

From the inevitable experiences I've found that, although I did not set out intending to wear DPM, enough Civvy clothing got damaged over the years & it was cheaper to get DPM from the stalls at W&P. I wish it could be 68 Pattern kit as that is what I grew up with but the 95 pattern is an acceptable substitute. As time has passed odds and ends of kit have been found indoors and been added to so as to make up a full set of 58 pattern webbing - also (to my wifes great dismay) my old favourite the SLR has joined the collection. But that is it for me. For the vehicles - they carry the CES or load they are meant to, still need a 353 set for the Stalwart as it was an FFR in service and the KVPT for the OT to complete them.

 

Now 3 years on from buying my first MV I find the whole thing has for me evolved beyond just owning my Stalwart & OT. Now, for me, - and in no particular order - it is a way of recalling there was a time in life when what I did was respected by people who in turn had earnt my respect, it is the social side - making new friends both withing the local area and here on the forum and, lastly, having a good time. I would not class myself as a re-enactor of living history, just a (not so) old guy having fun with friends. :)

 

As for the other aspects of the movement - again for me - Enigma summed it up exceedingly well when he said:

 

RESPECT is in fact the keyword here!

Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people.

BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear!

As with all things if some one is happy doing what they want then power to them. All I ask is they are not pushing their views at the expense of others.

 

As for Fearless Leaders comment:

 

Some points made by members who are ex servicemen has got me to question one or two things myself - cracking stuff, lets have more of it!

 

The problem is that I have more questions then answers now

All you have to do is ask the questions mate - then you will have the answers too!! There is no shortage of knowledge and experience here..... :):)

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When Adrian started this thread I asked the team to keep from posting in it as it got a bit uncomfortable for me last time - wasn't happy with the way Wayne was treated. But hell this thread has made up for it.

 

Some points made by members who are ex servicemen has got me to question one or two things myself - cracking stuff, lets have more of it!

 

The problem is that I have more questions then answers now:sweat:

 

 

 

Surely thats a GOOD Thing, though, Jack..........

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My interest in MVs springs from buying my Explorer, I was undecided as to what way to go with it. I was not too keen on keeping it in military guise because I didn't want to be seen to be "playing soldiers", on the other hand just going to shows with rows of old civvy lorries didn't appeal and the re-enacting scene left me baffled and was not for me either.

 

In the end I decided to keep it military as I could attend a much wider variety of events with it and get more chance to play with all it's gadgets and tow things about, this has turned out to suit me fine.

 

The first show I ever attended (wearing jeans) with it was Beltring 1995, I didn't feel very at home or comfortable at first, but after a while I realized that many other MV owners didn't dress up or "play soldiers", (I think the old white sofa and stuff going round the arena on a trailer convinced me of this one year) which opened my eyes to a whole new word where the differences between the various groups seemed to be tolerated.

 

Having now met a lot of LH and RE types by going to shows I have a little more understanding of what drives them and appreciate what they are trying to put across to the public, this forum has been a big part of the process. But they wouldn't want me or my vehicle in their display and I wouldn't want them in mine, fine, we can coexsist, it makes for a more diverse show.

 

During a conversation with an Irish forum member about re-enactors depicting the Northern Ireland conflict, I remarked that it was a bit too recent and close to home for me, his reply was "If they're re-enacting it that means it's over!" Fair comment, he has no problem with it so why should I?

 

I suppose when it comes down to it, I would rather have a group of pretend Germans camped next to me living in a hole all week, than a couple of bl**ding fair ground organs, I couldn't put up with that at all!

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Guest catweazle (Banned Member)
- wasn't happy with the way Wayne was treated.

:confused::confused::confused: see bottom line.

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"RESPECT is in fact the keyword here!

Respect between re-enacters, collectors and MV people.

BUT most of all respect to those who fought and died in those uniforms and gear!"

 

Well said Enigma... that does it for me!

 

I agree absolutely.

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