Originality

[antarmike]

Mike, you missed the point. If it was painted pink, had random antennas, stickers, chrome wheels etc then stop it overflying a military show. Since it is not, then I see no problem with it.

And what do we feel about a Buchon painted in Luftwaffe WW2 livery?

[antarmike]

In service condition or field modification to livery?? Would this be accepted at a military vehicle show?

Edited March 9, 2010 by antarmike

[Enigma]

Hi Mike

Good questions, a lot of people wouldn't like it I guess.

 

The real question is, what do we mean by "originality"?

Factory new, as used in the field, date of manufacture of its parts, etc...

[Marmite!!]

In service condition or field modification to livery?? Woulkd this be accepted at a military vehicle show?

 

If the provenance could be proved on any such exhibits then no problem, maybe it should be about being Historically Correct for the period being portrayed more than originality...

 

It's about keeping History alive... not making it up...

Edited December 4, 2009 by Marmite!!

[antarmike]

Someday when I have a bit more courage I'll post a picture of how my 80" Landy ended up looking, That will make a few of you wince. And before you say anything, I NEVER booked it in as an Ex Military vehicle or pretended its history was other than it was. After all you can do whatever you like, if you want to.

never intended to be anything other than a bit of fun!

[john fox]

Whilst I side with SIRHC's viewpoint in principle, in the case of Mike's specific vehicle i would not have known any better as I am not familiar with series LR and all I would see is an MP marked LR equipped with a capstan winch which I would take to be a genuinely presented interesting example of an early MV. :nut:

I think that to joe public would also assume it is an MV, so the question in the context of displaying such a vehicle (which you did not :-D) , is whether it is damagaing to our historic heritage if even one person goes away from that show believing that they have seen what MP's used to drive at "that" time. Obviously the use of an information board with the vehicle will educate those who read it and that may be all that's needed in such a case :-D

However if for example the tankedup.com lot turned up at an MV show I would find it disagreeable and suspect them of either a) seeking free entry to get a bit of publicity for their business but having no interest in the MV side of things and/or b) being nutters who want to play with ego trip butch toys rather than honour our history :mad:

[antarmike]

Whilst I side with SIRHC's viewpoint in principle, in the case of Mike's specific vehicle i would not have known any better as I am not familiar with series LR and all I would see is an MP marked LR equipped with a capstan winch which I would take to be a genuinely presented interesting example of an early MV. :nut:

I think that to joe public would also assume it is an MV, so the question in the context of displaying such a vehicle (which you did not :-D) , is whether it is damagaing to our historic heritage if even one person goes away from that show believing that they have seen what MP's used to drive at "that" time. Obviously the use of an information board with the vehicle will educate those who read it and that may be all that's needed in such a case :-D

However if for example the tankedup.com lot turned up at an MV show I would find it disagreeable and suspect them of either a) seeking free entry to get a bit of publicity for their business but having no interest in the MV side of things and/or b) being nutters who want to play with ego trip butch toys rather than honour our history :mad:

The 80" only went into this livery for a bit of fun, I never took it to a show, so no public decieved. I had Matadors, Douglas, and Antar on the show circuit when this was done. (and I had stopped taking "titchy Tackle" to shows)

[fesm_ndt]

Curiosity killed the cat again I guess so I have to comment into this 'arguement' again. I say arguement as the viewpoints can be somewhat polarised from one another.

 

My curiousity is that at these vehicular shows, dont they have categories clearly defined as what is what?

 

I am guess from these threads, not?

 

I can see both sides of the arguments as both are 'sides' eg originality is:

 

- factory built

- as per the book or CES

- as per the crew modded it

- even a replica (some people have built exact replicas)

 

I guess this is the main problem that at a show the rules should be clear as what is what. Also I guess you don't ant a pink Light Weight, with Barbire painted on it at a military show.

 

But on the other side if you want uber 'original' one can always buy a Land Rover from Withams that has been half destroyed by a land mine as original from service. I tend to think most people want though to fix a vehicle, use it instead of towing a burnt out wreck from show to show.

 

So I guess what I am saying is why isn't originality clearly defined by the show circuit, at varying degrees?

 

Isn't classic 25 years and vintage 50 years or something simple like that?

[Marmite!!]

As I said before it should be about being Historically Correct for the period being portrayed more than originality...

[fesm_ndt]

As I said before it should be about being Historically Correct for the period being portrayed more than originality...

 

so again that should be a rule? e.g. someone has a piece of kit and does it up as a perfect example or desert storm for what ever reason, maybe:

 

- he likes light stone colour

- maybe a desert storm example doesnt exist

 

I dont know, to me this is a vehicle someone spent a lot of time on, may not be original but as you said "Historically Correct for the period being portrayed" should be an award

 

I just can't understand why there isn't a clear set of guidelines or code of practice. It don't affect me as if I left my Pinzgauer original it would be barely running and maintainence would be contracted out to idiots with no brains.

 

From what I have seen of this forum there is a huge variety of people and has won awards for the betterment of historic vehicles. So I bet my left testicle a set of guidelines could be easily be developed and printed in the magazine.

[Lewis Garner]

The 'bling' Ferret was putrid! Does anyone know who owns it now? No offence to them if they're on here :-D

Regards

[griff66]

can any one post a pic of this ferret?

[john fox]

can any one post a pic of this ferret?

 

it is best forgotten as there was an earlier one which was even worse

[griff66]

oh, deep bronze green when i repaint my ferret as it came off production line with i guess no other markings as these would have been applied at allocated regiment?

[mike65]

Well this has been a few hours of very interesting reading so I think I had better add my opinoin.

 

 

Original - an interesting word could mean several things

1. existing since the beginning, or being the earliest form of something
   
2. not the same as anything or anyone else and therefore special and interesting
   

Based on this the first is unachievable unless you have the item hermatically sealed the minute it comes off the production line. ones it has unit markings etc it no longer complies with the first meaning.

However when it receives markings or any subsequend changes it does comply with the second meaning.

As such you could say my Series 3 109 FFR with aluminium durbar plating and Ford Escort seats is actually original as it complies with the second meaning (not the same as anything else). The PO's obviously liked these items and the seats are probably much more comfortable, however I do not believe these were an in service modifications.

 

However I believe that by "original" we are talking about is representing how a vehicle looked or may have looked at some stage during its career/lifetime. Unless you have an accurate photographic record of your vehicle or can find a previous service person who operated it with a photographic memory you can never return it to exactly how it was.

I feel that there should be some accuracy in how a vehicle is "restored" or "portrayed" and the items/accessories should all be appropriate for the type of vehicle and the period of its life you have chosen to represent making it in some way an authentic representation. I do not think that you should mislead people into thinking it is something it is not.

After all have you tried finding a "real" Ford Escort Mexico, I have seen 4 door, estate and even van versions advertised.

 

I do agree that things can and should be changed to make a vehicle safer and keep it running. I would rather see something moving with a fictitious paint scheme or non standard engine than have it left to rot, turned in to bean cans or stuck in a museum store. As such I have no problems with a Buchon painted to represent a 109 because it is atleast flying and people get to see it doing what it was meant to do.

 

I also believe that you can get carried away with restoration and return a vehicle to a better condition than it eve was. I saw an example of this at the new yew year in Madeira where they had a classic car rally in Funchal. I saw the only Series 3 Land Rover ever to have perfect body panel fit, alignment and gaps. Rolls Royce would have been proud of it.

 

However it all comes down to you pays your money and you make your choices. Wether you return it to how it came of the production line, paint it pink, change the engine it will be in some form "original".

 

I think it is important that we try to be authentic and not try to fool people into believing that it is something that it is not.

 

I have no idea what my FFR should acually look like and exactly what bits are missing. I will obtain bits as and when I can find them and fit them. If I post pictures or you see the vehicle and something is "wrong/inappropriate" I will appreciate the guidance.

 

Mike

[eddy8men]

here's an idea ,why don't you just let the vehicle owners enjoy their own vehicle anyway they see fit without being judged by anyone else !!!

maybe some people just want to have a bit of fun and don't care about restoration or accuracy and i say good for them.

 

eddy

[fesm_ndt]

here's an idea ,why don't you just let the vehicle owners enjoy their own vehicle anyway they see fit without being judged by anyone else !!!

maybe some people just want to have a bit of fun and don't care about restoration or accuracy and i say good for them.

 

eddy

 

G'Day Eddy

 

I have to agree with you on that respect, but delving back to the beginning of this thread the question of originality is in relation to vehicles at a military vehicle show.

 

I personally don't care either way in the respect, I doubt my vehicle will end up at a UK show and I wouldn't bother posting on such a mundane subject in that I prefer nuts and bolts to political subjects. But what I find strange is there is no clear guidelines.

 

I truly believe if guidelines wanted to be set this HMVF fourm would be the place to do it and just to make life more dificult for our admin/mods at the end of the year we could have, in the fourm:

 

- best restoration

- best replica

- best theatre specific vehicle

- best modified vehicle

 

I don't know the titles, just seems way to many posts on this issue that I think can be easilly defined and HMVF can set the benchmark. I say the HMVF community as I would say there is more people in here than would go to say W&P

[eddy8men]

hi mike

good points there with regard to the showing of military vehicles, don't get me wrong i'm no expert on these things but i think you have to differentiate between somebody showing their vehicle, as in" here's my vehicle do you like it" and those that might like to compete for a prize and take these things more seriously.there's room for all kinds if we start to judge others so harshly for something they personally feel proud of then we will only stifle this hobby and the rivet counters will win (no offence rivet counters). each to their own i say

 

eddy

[fesm_ndt]

hi mike

good points there with regard to the showing of military vehicles, don't get me wrong i'm no expert on these things but i think you have to differentiate between somebody showing their vehicle, as in" here's my vehicle do you like it" and those that might like to compete for a prize and take these things more seriously.there's room for all kinds if we start to judge others so harshly for something they personally feel proud of then we will only stifle this hobby and the rivet counters will win (no offence rivet counters). each to their own i say

 

eddy

 

yep I agree, completely.

 

Everything has its place or category and I think this fourm is both a good place to delberate those categories and also award them.

 

What we have going on currently:

 

- a ww1 truck getting rebuilt from a chassis

- tanks rebuilt from range wrecks

- a replica scwimmerwagen copied from a plasic model

 

which are a snippet of what I think is amazing at the moment.

[Dave]

To modify or not, doesn`t really bother me, my rule is try and keep it looking sort of original but what goes on underneath the skin is my business!

One thing that really does hack me off though is the bloke who buys a tax exempt and probably near standard land rover, then puts coil springs, a 3.9 V8 and all the other modern bits on board but still keeps the old tax exempt plate.

If they didn`t buy all this crap they would still be able to afford the proper tax!

Rant done- thank you.

[ruggyjohn]

the topic of originality crops up in all groups of preserved vehicles, not just military, i got in to military vehicles via scammells as they are a favourite of mine and there have been long debates in the classic truck magazines on what is an original vehicle,something close to how it left the factory is a good start with a truck. but with military stuff was then added later. to cut to the chase, if a vehicle has been saved from the scrap man then it can only be a good thing however it looks, take it to shows so the paying public have an array of vehicles to look at. if you want to compete for a prize then its up to the judges to decide which is the best one. we all see things differently but everyone should be encoureged in vehicle preservation to keep it alive and enjoyable.

[eddy8men]

couldn't have put it better myself

[LeeEnfield]

To play devils advocate, here, :cool2:, I think, if you are lucky enough to own a vehicle of historical importance, and yes there are quite a few prototype and rare vehicles, of all periods out there, it does become your responsibility to at least try and keep that originality.............Yes, I know the argument, 'it's my vehicle, so's I'll do with it what I will',.......but to me, if an owner feels like that, they should pass it on and buy something of which there are loads about.

 

Certainly looking at wartime vehicles, if being retained in its wartime guise, there should be no question, (although dependent on theatre of action depicted, no two vehice could look the same.).........Obviously, if said wartime vehicle was being depicted as a post war conversion, (Bedford MW's for example, I've seen garage one's with a light recovery jib on back in place of rear bodywork,.......and also one which was used as a mobile shop in the 50's -60's. These, are important as a snapshat of the motoring history in this country, inso much the muliitude of uses of demobed vehicles in a vehicle starved country.

 

However, Whilst I've said the above, obviously the issue of safty crops up, and I'd certainly agree with the fitting of modern indicators, tyres (if available in size needed), etc.

 

Interesting thread,

 

Andy

[sabre]

Very special army jeep.................:wow::wow::wow:

 

http://autotelegraaf.nl/occasion/13109812/land-rover-defender-zeer-aparte-leger-jeep

 

 

Now I'm going to get drunk....

:cry::cry::cry:

[Toolman]

I feel physically sick! :shocked: