Hand signals for directing armour and tracked vehicles

[cellstar]

Hi, I've noticed there seems to be a great variation in the hand signals people use when directing the movement of armour and or tracked vehicles, to the degree that I don't think I've seen two people use the same set of hand motions

 

What does everyone use?

 

 

Cheers,

Ian

[Bob Grundy]

I am quite keen on using the correct signals as laid down in the pamphlet. I don't have it to hand to quote from it however.....

If the guide or marshal gives the correct signals and the driver 'OBEYS' then it is possible to get an armoured vehicle

positioned with great accuracy (+/- 1inch) and safely.

[ferrettkitt]

I am quite keen on using the correct signals as laid down in the pamphlet. I don't have it to hand to quote from it however.....

If the guide or marshal gives the correct signals and the driver 'OBEYS' then it is possible to get an armoured vehicle

positioned with great accuracy (+/- 1inch) and safely.

 

Bob,

 

I wouldn't mind seeing that pamphlet or being able to copy it I got enough stick of Rick for not knowing what to do. Something that was ingrained in him during his service days

[Bob Grundy]

And so you should Andy and I hope it was a big stick.......

[gazzaw]

Hope this helps, If you want the whole manual PM me

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

[robin craig]

Garry,

 

how old are those signals? are they current uk mod?

 

R

[ferrettkitt]

And so you should Andy and I hope it was a big stick.......

 

Thanks Bob :laugh:

[Adrian Barrell]

There are specific tracked vehicle signals that differ slightly from those Gary posted, I'll scan them in later and post.

 

As Bob says, done properly, it is possible to position very accurately. Unfortunately, most drivers think they know better than the guide and do their own thing which is very annoying and some guides I wouldn't trust to direct water down a drainpipe.....:-D

[ferrettkitt]

There are specific tracked vehicle signals that differ slightly from those Gary posted, I'll scan them in later and post.

 

As Bob says, done properly, it is possible to position very accurately. Unfortunately, most drivers think they know better than the guide and do their own thing which is very annoying and some guides I wouldn't trust to direct water down a drainpipe.....:-D

 

At the moment I would be in the drainpipe category but I would like to elevate myself to kitchen sink

[robin craig]

Adrian hit it right on the head.

 

There are a couple of most elementary principles that civvy owners of tracked armour seem not to understand, most likely as they have no previous military experience.

 

The first one is "the driver drives under the direction of the vehicle commander" and the second is "ground guides are to be obeyed".

 

I know when I am guiding people the first thing I do is to fold the wing mirrors in so they cant see, second I tell them to look at me and do as they are told after reviewing the signals I will be using and the third thing is I walk away when they start swiveling their heads and wont take direction.

 

R

[Marmite!!]

The first one is "the driver drives under the direction of the vehicle commander"

R

The above is fine for off road use but not for driving on UK roads..

 

On UK roads & under UK Laws the Driver is in control & responsible for the vehicle, if he had an accident due to an incorrect command it would be the driver at fault & not the commander.

[Bob Grundy]

There was an instance well over ten years ago when both driver and commander in a Ferret were found to have committed 'culpable guilt'. I recall that it was when the vehicle was emerging from a side road onto a main one.

[timbo]

Adrian hit it right on the head.

 

There are a couple of most elementary principles that civvy owners of tracked armour seem not to understand, most likely as they have no previous military experience.

 

The first one is "the driver drives under the direction of the vehicle commander" and the second is "ground guides are to be obeyed".

 

I know when I am guiding people the first thing I do is to fold the wing mirrors in so they cant see, second I tell them to look at me and do as they are told after reviewing the signals I will be using and the third thing is I walk away when they start swiveling their heads and wont take direction.

 

R

 

Robin

 

Can certainly agree on your second point - drives me nuts when people use their mirrors instead of watching guide, and I have seen some very experienced people doing this - folding in of mirrors seems to be the only surefire way of stopping this.. As for me - well I have had my mirrors folded in on more than one occasion..!

[Big ray]

First and foremost there has to be a clear understanding between the driver and the guy giving directions, the driver must have implicite faith in the man giving the directions. The driver should not take his eyes of the man directing, if he does so, that indicates a complete lack of faith in that mans ability to give good direction. The man directing should stand immediately in front of the said vehicle where he can be clearly seen at all times by the driver. Two arms in the air both gesturing with the index fingers to reverse in a straight line, if he drops his left arm and continues to gesture with his right arm, then the driver should start to turn to his left, continuing to do so untill both arms are raised to indicate stop turning and continue straight, and visa versa to go the other way. When the guy giving direction crosses both arms STOP.

When at shows where one is likely to encounter joe public its always a good idea to have another person either side of the vehicle to cover the blind spot and assist the guy giving direction..... again with complete understanding of each other and their combined ability. Just plain common sense really, but today they like to call it Health and Safety.

[griff66]

another thing when commander telling drivers its clear to pull out swap lanes etc do not use NO or GO as they sound very similar over intercom nearly had a few incidents!! probably best are CLEAR OR STOP.

[Adrian Barrell]

Two arms in the air both gesturing with the index fingers to reverse in a straight line, if he drops his left arm and continues to gesture with his right arm, then the driver should start to turn to his left, continuing to do so untill both arms are raised to indicate stop turning and continue straight, and visa versa to go the other way. When the guy giving direction crosses both arms STOP.

 

 

Hmm, an example of poor directing in my opinion.

[Adrian Barrell]

These are the relevant pages from All arms training standing orders for the safety of crews of armoured fighting vehicles.

Dated 1980.

[landyandy]

These are the relevant pages from All arms training standing orders for the safety of crews of armoured fighting vehicles.

Dated 1980.

 

thats the set of rules we follow in reme museum easy to understand

[andym]

thats the set of rules we follow in reme museum easy to understand

 

They're also the ones I was taught when doing my H test. I managed to reverse a Scorpion into an ISO container by obeying them!

 

Andy

[ferrettkitt]

Many thanks thats just what I needed

[Toner]

Very handy, thanks ;-)

[John Pearson]

We use those signals at Bovy and with our own vehicles but we also understand the "Beltring" stop signal (forearms crossed above your head) as an acceptable variation to the raised hand. We find that people most often get two things wrong:

1. Wheeled vehicle. As rules state, turn steering while arm is raised then HOLD THE SAME LOCK once the arm is dropped. Some people think that it means take the lock off or even worse the signaller says "straighten up" which of course the driver cannot hear or if s/he can, cannot judge true "straight ahead" at such a slow speed.

2. Reverse of tracked vehicle with (Wilson etc) steering which is opposite acting from how it works forward. Rule is that the signaller tells the driver where the vehicle has to go and it is the driver who operates the controls to make it go that way, ie it is the driver that "translates" the instructions not the signaller. I must admit however that whenever I am signalling such a vehicle, I check there is no confusion with the driver beforehand.

 

Oh and practice makes for corner cutting, like only making small movements maybe hands only say instead of full movement, parade ground snaps of the arms. We are always telling each other off for this!!!

[Big ray]

Hmm, an example of poor directing in my opinion.

 

It worked fine in the 1950s.... whats changed. Maybe my written interpretation does not match my verbal one, always difficult if you are not illustrating....... ask the french.

[AlienFTM]

Both sets of pictures are exactly what we used in my day, though where the pamphlet says "smartly to attention" ... well that isn't the cavalry way when on vehicles. "Smartly to attention" is strictly for the drill square.

 

One thing that we always used (not mentioned). When reversing a wheeled vehicle, the straight arm out to the side to indicate "turn the wheel this way" was okay for gentle wheel turning, but when the commander wanted the driver to turn the wheel hard over, we tended to spin the index finger or the fist (taking most of the arm with it) in the physical direction he wanted the wheel to go. Commander turns his hand anti-clockwise, the driver, facing the opposite way, instinctively follows the motion and turns the wheel clockwise, front wheels go left, vehicle turns to vehicle right.

 

Summer of 1977, the Squadron Leader organised a day out for me. USAF were trialling YC14 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YC-14 ) and YC15 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_YC-15 ) at nearby RAF Boscombe Down.

 

Fifth Troop Leader took a composite troop of a slack handful of various CVRs, Ferrets, Saracens, etc from Tidworth and we spent the day loading and unloading vehicles. ISTR these aeroplanes could carry something like 200 tons of evenly-loaded freight and they just wanted to see how it went loading A vehicles. I have to say the US system of hand signals was completely alien to us and we spent a lot of time trying to get our heads around their hand signals.

 

They could, it was claimed, take off fully laden with next to no runway and land fully laden on a football pitch. We were more impressed by the planes' performance than by the loadies' hand signals.

[AlienFTM]

I am quite keen on using the correct signals as laid down in the pamphlet. I don't have it to hand to quote from it however.....

If the guide or marshal gives the correct signals and the driver 'OBEYS' then it is possible to get an armoured vehicle

positioned with great accuracy (+/- 1inch) and safely.

 

We used to park three Sultans (previously three Saracen ACVs) about an inch apart in the hangar so we could walk across the tops and couldn't if we wanted to twist an ankle between them.

 

Tracks are actually a lot easier to manouevre than wheels. We'd load the Saracens onto flats for the train to take them to the exercise area along with the Scorpions, Scimitars, etc (Ferrets sometimes drove, sometimes trained). We drove them on. It was a bitch to reverse them off (usually - sometimes we could drive them off too) because the slightest variation of the steered wheels from straight instantly had the vehicle hanging over the side of a flat car that it only just fitted on anyway. When driving off, the Sarry went where the front wheels pointed: when reversing off, it instantly turned to cuds. With tracks, by default it goes straight until you steer it.

[gazzaw]

Hope this helps, If you want the whole manual PM me

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

Sorry been away and only picking up messages etc - this is from

MILITARY ROAD MOVEMENT (ALL ARMS)current issue of the British Army Battle Box

Gary