question Private HGV Tacho Requirements?

[Marmite!!]

After reading the last paragraph of Preston Isaac's Autumn MVT chairmans report http://www.mvt.org.uk/news.htm it appears that he is saying that he has been fined £200 for not using a Tacho in a PHGV (unless I have read this wrong??) so what are the Tacho requirements for PHGV's.. What if the PHGV is not fitted with a Tacho like the Fox CVR(W) ?

[Bran D]

I have done some investigations on this issue. I had a Foden that was exempt from Tacho requirements for private use. When I took the truck for its yearly MOT I completed a tacho exemption form, available here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/HGV%20Tachograph%20Exemption%20Declaration%20Form.pdf

The exemption I had was the vehicle was over 25 years old and is not used commercially.

The Fox is just under 7.5 tonnes, so if it is not over 25 years old it should fall under exemption 4 on the form.

However I am now in the process of getting a 1992 drops ready for the same task. After several calls, including some to Vosa, I will have to use a tacho when driving this vehicle.

This means I will have to have it installed, calibrated and routinely checked to satisfy the requirements.

What is also of concern is that the working hours directive applies. This means that my normal daytime job has to be taken into account in the number of hours I can drive for, even though my normal daytime job is not driving HGV's.

 

It is a bit of a minefield out there, at least you have some armour for protection!!

[Tony B]

The bug bear in this is 'resting' time. Defined as time that you dispose of as you wish. So when you are working at the day job, the time is not yours to dispose of as you wish. So your 'rest' time, in which you would be driving the DROPS, means you haven't had sufficent 'rest'. so you are in breach of driving hour regulations.

 

There is a whole new term for these cock ups, they are now called by the **** that make them 'Unexpected consequences'.

[utt61]

The bug bear in this is 'resting' time. Defined as time that you dispose of as you wish.

 

So what happens if you are self-employed? Then you can dispose of the time as you wish, which may be choosing to work.

[Tony B]

That's the bug bear. It must be clearly marked on your calander the days are 'REST'. I and most of the stage bus drivers on here all drive Domestic Hours, which are difrent from International and truck hours. It is a bloody minefeild. For instance 'THEY' dictate if driving a car, you should take a breack every two hours oor so for about twenty minutes. A bus or coach driver on INTERNATIONAL, EEC hours must take a thirty minute break after four hours, but can split to thre breaks of not les than fiteen minutes. Daily driving hours max of thirteen (Twenty two if doubled manned) Daily rest minimum eleven hours, but, may be reduced to nine hours up to thre times a week but the time lost must be compensated by the end of the following week. Weekly rest forty five hours after six days. This may be cut to thirty six hours if working from base or twenty four if away but time must be compansated for en-bloc within three weeks. Domestic hours are maximum FIVE AND HALF HOURS driving thirty minute break or eight hours thirty with forty five minute aggragate breack. I'm not even going to start on the rows and arguments over stand time etc.

 

so you see what a whole mind fuddeling mess it is?

[andym]

When I was at Piccadilly Radio in Manchester in the 1980s we had two Outside Broadcast trucks built on Ford Cargo 0815 chassis. They were registered and taxed as PLG because they didn't satisfy the definition of HGV in that they didn't carry "goods". They also didn't have tachos for the same reason. The rules may have changed since then, but it's worthwhile asking if your PHGV is actually an HGV at all?

 

Andy

[radiomike7]

So what happens if you are self-employed? Then you can dispose of the time as you wish, which may be choosing to work.

 

I was recently picked up for submitting my time sheet and invoice by email while I was on weekly break; I had to claim that my wife had sent it using my profile.

[ChasSomT.]

Surely a CVR(W) isn't a HGV!

The world has gone mad!

[griff66]

same as a ferret aint a hgv

[Marmite!!]

Surely a CVR(W) isn't a HGV!

The world has gone mad!

 

Thought PLG is under 3.5t??

[Tony B]

No, any vehicle can be PLG. The catergory was brought in to 'harmonise' the diffrence bettween commercial good vehicle, that is for hire and reward and non commercial carrying. The Hire & Reward also require Certificates of Competence to operate. As a commercial driver as well now. So if your'e main job is not 'driving' and LGV or PSV you don't ned a CPC. So if you stick a box on the back of an MK or MJ with a bed etc in it, drive where you like when you like how you like! Take a plain MK or MJ..... I'm off for a pint of brandy and vallium sandwich.

[Marmite!!]

Attached the Tax Classes pdf

Tax Classes.pdf

[Tony B]

Make that two pints of Brandy!

[Zero-Five-Two]

Biggest trouble with the whole system, as Tony has pointed out, is that the rules are now so complicated that even the VOSA aren't totally sure how to interpret them sometimes. The Traffic Officer on the side of the road or even the local plod are well out of their depth sometimes, so Joe Public with his PHGV that he only takes out on a sunday has got no chance of understanding it all.

 

Best bet if you do get pulled over, smile sweetly, be nice to the guy, chances are he only wants to have a nose round your motor, anyway

[Sean N]

... what are the Tacho requirements for PHGV's.. What if the PHGV is not fitted with a Tacho like the Fox CVR(W) ?

 

All the current requirements and exemptions are in GV262-02, see http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf

 

Why would a Fox be Private HGV or come under tacho regs though, it's not a goods vehicle, surely? As has been said already, it's probably PLG.

[LoggyDriver]

I have done some investigations on this issue. I had a Foden that was exempt from Tacho requirements for private use. When I took the truck for its yearly MOT I completed a tacho exemption form, available here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/HGV%20Tachograph%20Exemption%20Declaration%20Form.pdf

The exemption I had was the vehicle was over 25 years old and is not used commercially.

The Fox is just under 7.5 tonnes, so if it is not over 25 years old it should fall under exemption 4 on the form.

However I am now in the process of getting a 1992 drops ready for the same task. After several calls, including some to Vosa, I will have to use a tacho when driving this vehicle.

This means I will have to have it installed, calibrated and routinely checked to satisfy the requirements.

What is also of concern is that the working hours directive applies. This means that my normal daytime job has to be taken into account in the number of hours I can drive for, even though my normal daytime job is not driving HGV's.

 

It is a bit of a minefield out there, at least you have some armour for protection!!

 

 

 

 

Are they going to give that to you in writing? Are you carrying goods on the truck or is it empty?

 

If they are saying that you are subject to domestic and EU driving regulations then the driving time is the least of your worries. You will also be subject to Working Time and daily and weekly rest. You will need to keep a record of ALL your working time, even your day job. When you take your DROPS out at night you will be restricted severely. If you start work at 6am and finish at 18.00hrs then you will only be able to "work" until 21.00hrs and that can only be done 3 times a week. If you are going to drive in the evening then you will need to take a 30 minute break after 6 hours work and another 15 minutes after 9 hours work (if you work more than 9 hours). You will need to keep a minimum of 28 days records. It goes on, and on and on....

[andym]

Attached the Tax Classes pdf

 

That document defines Goods Vehicle as "a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a motor bicycle or tricycle not over 450kg unladen) which is constructed or adapted for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description, including samples, and which exceeds 3,500kg revenue weight ." A DROPS may fit in this definition, but CVR(W)s and the like plainly don't. Also, if the vehicle was registered before 1 March 2001, PLG is defined as "vehicles used for "private" (non-trade or business) purposes (including 3 wheeled vehicles over 450kg unladen). " I think you've got a PLG ....

 

Andy

[Brooky]

My twopennorth!!!

(Taken from the FTA Law Yearbook)

Vehicles used under EU drivers hours rules must be fitted with a tachograph and records kept

EU drivers hours apply to the carriage by road of goods vehicles that exceed 3.5 tonnes mpm or vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 9 persons

Carriage by road means journeys completed on roads open to the public

There are of course exemptions!!

8. Vehicles that have a historic status...............manufactured more than 25 years before the occasion it was being driven

Note with the above it is a rolling 25 years

 

So bottom line, if under 25 years and over 3.5tonnes tacho should be fitted and used, vehicle over 25years exempt

[N.O.S.]

My twopennorth!!!

(Taken from the FTA Law Yearbook)

Vehicles used under EU drivers hours rules must be fitted with a tachograph and records kept

EU drivers hours apply to the carriage by road of goods by vehicles that exceed 3.5 tonnes mpm or vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 9 persons

Carriage by road means journeys completed on roads open to the public

There are of course exemptions!!

8. Vehicles that have a historic status...............manufactured more than 25 years before the occasion it was being driven

Note with the above it is a rolling 25 years

 

So bottom line, if under 25 years and over 3.5tonnes, and if used for carriage of goods, tacho should be fitted and used, vehicle over 25years exempt

 

Would it be fair / correct to add the bits in red above, to make it more clear what is covered by Driver's hours legislation?

 

And does this mean carriage of goods for hire or reward only, or does it cover being used laden with anything?

 

Examples of being used laden applicable to our (MV) use might include carrying a MV to a show, collecting a newly purchased project vehicle, or moving something for a friend f.o.c.

 

The rolling 25 years is very interesting - possibly a mistake by the legislation writers?

[Brooky]

Page 48 of the 2010 FTA yearbook states

EU drivers hours apply to "the carriage by road" of goods where the vehicle/combination exceeds 3.5 tonnes

 

It then states "Carriage by road means any journey made entireley or in part on roads open to the public by a vehicle whether laden or notused to carry goods.................................."

 

No mention of hire and reward so it looks like there has been a change

 

In the introduction to the VOSA pamphlet Rule on Drivers Hours and Tachographs (Revised 2009 GV262-02) it states that the guide provides advice to drivers and operators of goods vehicles whether used privately or commercially..................

That seem to be a very broad brush, and again it talks about carriage by road NOT hire and reward. On the next page is a flow chart to decide what rules apply and NO distinction is made between private and commercial.

The only exemption that would apply to us is the one already stated about the 25 years (once again that appears to be a rolling 25 years)

Again from a road safety perspective, one of the reasons the tacho was introduced, it would make sense to ensure that everybody driving an "in scope" vehicle sticks to the same rules

[N.O.S.]

Thanks for that, Brooky.

 

Looks like I need to revisit all the legislation once more :readbook::sweat: - as things may have moved on since I last formed a view on what it all meant :??? :cool2:

[Brooky]

The VOSA document is available form VOSA and is i think FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flywheel]

so what happens with modified h.g.v.'s ie horseboxes are the owners of these all driving around using tacho's or is there an exemption for this

[Brooky]

so what happens with modified h.g.v.'s ie horseboxes are the owners of these all driving around using tacho's or is there an exemption for this

 

If they are taxed Private Heavy Goods and over 3.5 tonne then yes drivers hours and tacho use apply

I cannot see any exemption or derogation except for a vehicle used to carry live animals between farm and market or from a market to a slaughterhouse where the distance doesnt exceed 50kms..................dont however think many horse box owners would use that one!

 

The point is that the rules apply to vehicles used for carriage of goods and horses are goods

[Tony B]

No, private horseboxes don't have an exemption. Hence I had to find out what I could. Additionally carrying livestock has a whole new world of hurt legislation. Not to mention being in and out of the LEZ on local roads! :banghead: The latest dodge for horse boxes is that a lot of them have living accomadation built in, re-register as campers. The horses are 'pets', DVLA hasn't got it's head round that one yet!:cool2: