How were Land Rovers painted, when delivered to the British Army?

[LarryH57]

When I was in the Army, newly built Series III Land Rovers were delivered to my RE unit in late 1970s , painted in Gloss Dark Bronze Green but with the galvanised parts, like front and rear fenders and tilt hoops left unpainted, and with  yellow bridge plates. In the early 1980s the existing Series LRs were taken to Workshops and were sprayed Nato matt green and black,  including the bridge plates. I never saw any grey coloured ones. A year or two later, the bridge plates were removed entirely.

After that, I dont remember ever seeing a new Series LR delivered in Nato matt green, with unpainted galvanised parts. Am I remembering correctly- did the painting style / instructions to Land Rover change? Did they spray the entire vehicle before deliver, or were British Army units always supplied via a Vehicle Storage / Park type Unit, where they were sprayed prior to delivery?

I do remember an occasion when a new Series FFR  arrived and I painted it with Nato matt black to camouflage it, as it was just green.

My own Lwt, a 1980 built 12v GS, is a bit strange as some parts of it are Gloss DBG, such as the part below the windscreen and aroundthe vent panels, but the rest is Nato green; were manufacturers using up old stock of parts or was this done by the British Army?  My Lwt does show evidence of a collision, possibly with a tree or trees, as the front offside wing has been repaired and the Offside front bumper is slightly bent. On the nearside it appears another collision with a tree has bent the tub, while in use without the doors. Also at the rear, there is a box for the jack in the 'wheel arch' that has been added. There should be one in the nearside engine bay for 'HG' registered vehicles?

Edited April 13 by LarryH57

[fv1609]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

After that, I dont remember ever seeing a new Series LR delivered in Nato matt green, with unpainted galvanised parts. Am I remembering correctly- did the painting style / instructions to Land Rover change? Did they spray the entire vehicle before deliver, or were British Army units always supplied via a Vehicle Storage / Park type Unit, where they were sprayed prior to delivery?

Larry looking at DGFVE Specification No.341 for S3 LtWt Jan 1980 the requirement was for the vehicle to be painted in IRR NATO Green. The galvanised bits were not specified to be painted.

But the Spec only required the minimum paint thickness to be 15 microns, which is admitted as not meeting the full IRR requirement.

So it would seem that to meet this requirement the vehicles in depot would be painted with a further coat of IRR NATO Green. This no doubt would include the exposed galvanised fittings as their IRR reflectance would need to be toned down to be similar in IRR behaviour as foliage. Not to paint these bits would tactically inept as they would be too reflective under IRR illumination..

Granted that the paint adherence would not be good but that could be touched up at the start of hostilities at the time when the canopies were painted. At the time there was no IRR NATO Green paint that was unreactive with canvas or nylon canopies.

[10FM68]

My own recollections of Land Rover deliveries (also to an RE unit in the 70s) was this:  When I arrived at Waterbeach in 1977 existing Land Rovers were all in bronze green.  Galv bits were unpainted.  Because we were an Airfields regiment, many of the vehicles had a locally-applied yellow band right round them, but that is a digression.  My squadron was in NI in late 77.  Before we went we were issued GRP armour kits to fit to our Land Rovers.  These were in matt 'NATO' green, some panels having black camouflage, but the panels were all mixed.  Consequently the whole vehicle was painted overall matt 'NATO' green to tidy it up.  This, of course, included the bronze green areas of the vehicle where there was no armour.  When we returned in 78 the kits were removed and the vehicles now looked really dreadful as, where the armour had been, they were still DBG and where it hadn't, matt 'NATO' green.  So they were all repainted in matt 'NATO' green and matt black camouflage stripes were added.  This also saw the end of formation and AOS signs - which 12 Engineer Brigade had hung onto until then.  Repainting was done with both brushes and sprays - the standard wasn't particularly high and preparation not great, so there was quite a bit of peeling as time went by.  It was done within squadrons, the vehicles weren't sent away to workshops for painting.

Shortly after that, maybe late 78 or, certainly in 1979, I saw the first Land Rovers issued brand new in IRR matt green.  Again, galv bits weren't painted, nor were some of the rivets, so it is clear that Land Rover used pre-painted panels in construction - the whole vehicle itself not being painted on completion.  This recollection ties in with my own 1979 Land Rover Lightweight which was supplied in IRR green.

I don't believe any Land Rovers received additional paint at ordnance depots prior to delivery to units.  I think that is also true of other types of vehicle - Bedfords, for example, always arrived in units in manufacturers' paint finishes.

During the DBG days some units hand-painted the galv bits - particularly bumpers.  And, of course, in those days vehicles were kept in considerably better state than they were later on, so unit repainting was commonplace once any signs of shabbiness appeared.  I know when I was in Iserlohn, (early 80s), my squadron spent a great deal of time repainting vehicles after the autumn exercises to get them up to scratch for PRE inspections.  Again, this was done within the squadron and was both spray and brush applied.

I do remember grey bridging circles from Iserlohn days - again, unit applied.  I don't remember there being any requirement to remove them as policy, just that Land Rover stopped adding them to new vehicles (but, as REME occasionally had reason to swap over a grille, it was perfectly possible to find late-issue Land Rovers with bridging circles).

But, there were few hard-and-fast rules, despite what EMERs etc might dictate: much was down to the unit commander and his own ideas of what constituted smartness.  RA units, in particular, were always much smarter than, say RE who were a bit 'cabby' about this sort of thing.  And, of course, some units were very careful with the application of the balck camouflage; others weren't.  QDG adopted a horizontal stripe pattern for the black rather than the, more common, diagonal.  So, basically, there was far greater variation than the rule books might suggest. 

Here are a couple of photos which I know to be contemporary.  They aren't typical in that they are being used for rallying, but they ARE in typical vehicle colours for Land Rovers at that time:

A Series 2A LWB from 39 Engr Regt (Airfds) in 1978.  DBG with AOS (REME) & Fmn signs & yellow bridging circle:

 

This is a 2A SWB CL in 1979, again in DBG:

And the same vehicle in 1980 having been brush-painted to smarten it up with paint from the store (note the Millie to the rear is also in IRR green without black cam)

Interestingly is the fact that the unit held brand new civilian pattern tilts for their CLs not just standard military ones and that the CL had pusher bumpers at the front but not bumperettes at the rear.

Edited April 13 by 10FM68

[10FM68]

This is the only photo I can find in my collection of a Land Rover Lightweight in factory paint.  Clearly, it has been taken from storage in an ordnance depot (Ashchurch?) and given to SARO of Gloucester (I think) to convert to 'bog frog' for the Falkland Islands (so this has to be late 82 at the earliest).  The stencilling is still on the windscreen from its time in storage and the paint is standard Land Rover IRR 'NATO' green.  (Obviously the modifications have been touched-up to match the rest).  But, note, the galv is unpainted.

[ruxy]

It is possible that S3 LWT front top bulkhead panels (ventilator)  were spares supplied in DBG , it depends on the spares contract & with whom Solihull or Unipart.  I would have to check - I think the S2A vent panels I have are in red oxide. I have only known S3 radiator panels in red oxide, I have S3 bulkheads and they are grey oxide.  I have tub upper body sides , S3 front wings , tailgate No. plate hinged flaps in beige primer. Some sill panels may be beige but most are dark brown primer,  S2A front wings are all in DBG.  The dark brown and beige primer panels  - seem powder coated paint - that I would date circa.  1980 on.

88CL   was Ex-Solihull in DBG (DIS Jan.  1978)  & I think LWT was still ex-works DBG at this time.     LWT  23HF86  (DIS  Jan. '79)   was ex-works  NATO Green -  so obviously the change point for colour was during 1978  (somewher I have a note to exact LWT  VRM). 

              LWT  50HG75  as/is   is still ex-works finish  NATO GREEN  ,  Lucas painted the headlamp fairing rims  NG and the thickness was a few microns , water washed to red primer. Bezel  (retaining mask for bulb unit was gloss-black) , NATO pintle was black.  All galvanising - unpainted.    What you have to remember with  HG  (1980 build)  Contract   FVE22A-115/  (many item numbers) - were frustrated orders intended for Iran.   I don't know if Iran ordered their own paint colour , probably at that stage Solihull was aware they were not being exported - so all the stuff in prep. was painted NG  (for the British MOD).   1984 - I had conversations with a Mr. Isdale of L.R. Technical about changes to seating / lids over petrol tanks  +  I received some interesting documentation , the paint spec. for British MOD actually states  -  BODY COLOUR  -  Bronze Green   I.R.R.  Finish ,    UNDERBODY SEALING  As laid down in  F.V.R.D.E.   specification   2012.    Hhmm   NOT  ,  It seems some HG were undersealed but some Item Nos.  (that for Item 4  that was for  390 vehicles  built  June-Sept  1980)  were  not undersealed.  No underseal - I would  suggest intended for Iran, and the British MOD were not inclined to pay £ extra.    In 2023  (finally)   The UK Gov. squared up the £££££ owed back that the Shah had paid up in front for tanks & vehicles.

[Adrian Dwyer]

16 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

This is the only photo I can find in my collection of a Land Rover Lightweight in factory paint.  Clearly, it has been taken from storage in an ordnance depot (Ashchurch?) and given to SARO of Gloucester (I think) to convert to 'bog frog' for the Falkland Islands (so this has to be late 82 at the earliest).  The stencilling is still on the windscreen from its time in storage and the paint is standard Land Rover IRR 'NATO' green.  (Obviously the modifications have been touched-up to match the rest).  But, note, the galv is unpainted.

Bog Frog: Stanley, 1988

[LarryH57]

When, I bought my Lwt about 20 years ago, I wanted it to look fairly orginal, but liked the splash of colour of the yellow bridge plate, and the Union Flag, but removed the Pegasus badge!

Revisiting a few photos of the RE vehicles on exercise in 1980s in BAOR, shows a  distinct lack of Union Flags, but green bridge plates and in one photo I have there is a number in 2 inches high numbers above the headlight.

 

[10FM68]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

Revisiting a few photos of the RE vehicles on exercise in 1980s in BAOR, shows a  distinct lack of Union Flags, but green bridge plates and in one photo I have there is a number in 2 inches high numbers above the headlight.

 

From looking through my collection of photos, I would say that the application of the Union Jack sticker on BAOR vehicles was the rule, rather than the exception and this seems to hold true throoughout the entire history of BAOR.  Of course, UK-based, BAOR reinforcement units which exercised in Germany, but which were not based there, such as 19 Inf Bde, or 2 Inf Div, did not carry them. Some UK-based units - AMF(L) for example did as they deployed with international formations.  But, like every other rule in the Army, it was frequently broken I am sure, not least because the stickers themselves didn't last forever and there would have been times when they were 'dues out' so unable to be applied.

Regarding the bridging circles, the story isn't as clear and it is harder to verify as, with a B/W photo it isn't possible to tell whether the circle is yellow or grey, or possibly, matt olive.  However, there are plenty of colour photos showing grey ones in use on matt green or green/black base colours.  You are certainly right that, by the 90s the convention of applying them had morphed, through 'body colour' to nothing at all.  And, of course, in many cases, the circle was painted on, but not the classification.  As you will see from the photo below of an Antar of 16 Tk Tptr Regt, even the yellow circles sometimes appeared on matt green/black - which, according to the rules, should never have done so.  There are a few colour photo examples below which may be of interest, including a grey bridging circle on an Allis.

The 2" high numbers you mention are the dying remnants of the old AOS signs when the unit type number was on the AOS flash.  The flashes went but, for a time, the numbers remained: below is an example on an Iserlohn Terex: 3/76 - 3 for 3 Div, 76 for the engineer regiment.  

      

[LarryH57]

Out of interest when my Lwt was made in 1980, what colour was the chassis and fuel tanks. Fuel tanks seem to be matt black, when I see them as spares for sale, but mine are Nato Green. As for the chassis, the undercoat and general use  makes them earth dust brown. Some units painted the bumper and rear fenders in camouflage and others matt black or nato green. I guess these were unpainted when they left Solihull factory?

Edited yesterday at 12:53 PM by LarryH57

[10FM68]

Gloss black was used for the chassis and for the fuel tanks.  This lost its sheen over time.  Satin black is often used by restorers but isn't, actually, correct; probalby because it reflects the actual appearance of the elderly vehicle they are restoring - lost sheen appearing satin, or even, somewhat matt.  The same applies to the instrument panel, gear lever pedals and one or two other details: seatbelt mountings, for example.  The bumpers were left unpainted galv fore and aft.  As you say, over time in service, Land Rovers acquired further coats of paint with varying levels of skill - mostly these involved painting the galv bits in body colour - either matt green or included in the camouflage pattern.  It wasn't usual for bumpers to be painted completely black in any form of 'contrast' with the rest of the vehicle. 

But... as with everything to do with the Army, never say never despite what regulations may say.  Tilts are another area - generally the Army didn't add black camouflage stripes to their tilts for most of the time the green & black camouflage was in use.  The RAF did, however, much more frequently on their RAF Regiment soft skins.  Towards the end of the green & black period more army tilts were camouflaged, particularly on older vehicles, though why this started I don't know -whether policy or fashion - either being great drivers.  

[ruxy]

8 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Out of interest when my Lwt was made in 1980, what colour was the chassis and fuel tanks. Fuel tanks seem to be matt black, when I see them as spares for sale, but mine are Nato Green. As for the chassis, the undercoat and general use  makes them earch dust brown. Some units painted the bumper and rear fenders in camouflage and others matt black or nato green. I guess these were unpainted when they left Solihull factory?

1980  -  I doubt if your chassis & underside of wings &  fuel tanks were sprayed with black bitumastic (asbestos reinforced)  underseal.  1980   ?   - seemed a change point on this, or just some contracts.  IIRC  Trimite were the paint makers for chassis & axle casings , somewhere I have the spec.  Chassis dipped in a grey primer first.

 

[LarryH57]

Thanks Ruxy and 10FM68 and all the other contributors, to my thread.

Edited 10 hours ago by LarryH57