red Diesel

[ChasSomT.]

SORN

 

Surely that was brought in because 'the official mind' saw the number of taxed vehicles was well behind the number of 'Registered' vehicles, and jumped to the conclusion that therefore the difference MUST be being driven/ridden around untaxed.

'Civil Servants' obviously don't have 'Project vehicles', purely off-road vehicles, collections of unused vehicles of any kind.

I'n Not saying there aren't untaxed vehicles used on the roads, but I Am saying that there Aren't the numbers 'they' think there are!:-)

 

Chas.

[antarmike]

The number of number plate recognition cameras around Lincoln, Wragby, Grimsby, to name but a few make it almost impossible to run an unlicensed vehicle around Lincolnshire, surely Number plate recognition has made SORN redundant, and it is now time to save the money spent trying to paper chase the SORN system.

[paulob1]

here her am with you on that one..get rid of it and maybe 1000's of pointless civil servants...dont mean to make people lose their jobs but this is one where it really is unjustifiable...

[ArtistsRifles]

The number of number plate recognition cameras around Lincoln, Wragby, Grimsby, to name but a few make it almost impossible to run an unlicensed vehicle around Lincolnshire, surely Number plate recognition has made SORN redundant, and it is now time to save the money spent trying to paper chase the SORN system.

 

Not with the amount of £££'s they must rake in fining people who are late renewing SORN notices or never bothered as the car was unroadworthy and used a a spares donor... I know a couple of people who got stung for a couple of hundred pounds each as they had donor vehicles that were not declared scrapped or SORNED and the numbers got collected on a routine tax disc sweep....

I got done for £80 last year for missing the SORN renewal date by a month on an old Saab.

[Marmite!!]

What's the problem? if the vehicle's off the road & RFL expired then spend 30seconds online or make a phone call to declare SORN job done.. simple.. can't be bothered then don't moan when you get a fine..

 

Shall we get back to red diesel now:tup::

[cosrec]

Hang on - is there a nasty little Gotcha hiding here? I read this as saying that a vehicle which is, or has been road registered can only use red diesel ON PRIVATE LAND if a SORN has been declared? I wonder how many people with "Historic" taxed vehicles this will bite, as there's usually no incentive to declare it SORN?

 

Andy

never read this before looks like if you have one that is registered you are dammed if you do and dammed if you dont. Although i do no HMCR will not dip on private land unless they have proof it was driven on a public road to get there

[andym]

Shall we get back to red diesel now:tup::

 

Yes, but many thanks for the notes about red diesel and SORN. That could have potentially been embarrassing/expensive! :shocked:

 

Andy

[simonm]

As you mentioned SORN (sorry safariswing ) this, along with so much legislation is based on the assumption we all live in London. The further we go into the rural areas the less the legislation has any relevance. Hence (getting back to red diesel) the legislation about fuels for use both on and off road. Somebody using a high sulpher fuel in Brixton will have an effect on all the locals whether on road or not. The same person in the darkest depths of rural England, well, whose to know or care - least of all the local police / ministry who have better things to do. A bit like shooting rabbits, try that in Brixton (I think they shoot back?).

[CVRTNick]

A problem would be if you if your Fv432 were on private land using red diesel for 90% for the year & you attend the W&P show at Beltring!Even though it private land,is’nt it classed during the show as public highway?

[Tugger]

A problem would be if you if your Fv432 were on private land using red diesel for 90% for the year & you attend the W&P show at Beltring!Even though it private land,is’nt it classed during the show as public highway?

 

I'd be surprised if that were the case. I can't really see HMRC being able to dip tanks on private land and taking action, if you had on display the method by which you got the vehicle there such as a low loader, or otherwise proof of that. That and the fact there are numerous non registered vehicles that are driven around which would be tricky to allow if the land was registered as public highway.

[Adrian Barrell]

Quite. This is often misunderstood. Some of the Road Traffic Act is applicable insofar as charges can be brought such as dangerous driving at public events but it is in no way treated as a public highway.

[trustmeimamechanic]

just a point Gents.... not all who may read this are friendly towards Mil vehicles or their owners ..... a bit like posts slagging off the DVLA this may well have a detrimental affect on our hobby ... ignorance is sometimes bliss....

[utt61]

A problem would be if you if your Fv432 were on private land using red diesel for 90% for the year & you attend the W&P show at Beltring!Even though it private land,is’nt it classed during the show as public highway?

 

No it's classed as "land to which the public has access" or something along those lines, and some of the provisions of the RTA apply (a bit like a Tesco car park really - privately owned, but some RTA provisions apply). You would under normal circumstance still be able to drive a vehicle which is not road legal at such a show and run it on red. Clearly you could not legally drive such a vehcile to the show.

 

I'd be surprised if that were the case. I can't really see HMRC being able to dip tanks on private land and taking action, if you had on display the method by which you got the vehicle there such as a low loader, or otherwise proof of that. That and the fact there are numerous non registered vehicles that are driven around which would be tricky to allow if the land was registered as public highway.

 

Generally HMRC can dip tanks wherever they please if they have reason to think an offence may have been committed (in fact HMRC have more powers including powers of entry than any other organisation - they can enter and search your home without warrant, something the Police cannot do), so I very much doubt whether you could stop them dipping tanks at an MV event. If the vehicle dipped has a road fund licence, irrespective of how it got to the show, it is illegal to have red in the tank. Even vehicle which are Ag registered can only use red when carrying out ag-related work, and attending a show isn't.

 

It doesn't matter that it wasn't driven there. If it is capable of being driven legally on the road, it cannot use red.

 

If you had a vehicle that wasn't road registered and was transported to the show, it could use red.

[Marmite!!]

just a point Gents.... not all who may read this are friendly towards Mil vehicles or their owners ..... a bit like posts slagging off the DVLA this may well have a detrimental affect on our hobby ... ignorance is sometimes bliss....

& ignorance is not a defense.. without threads like this members may unintentionally break the law as they didn't know any difference but would still get prosecuted..

[andym]

... without threads like this members may unintentionally break the law as they didn't know any difference but would still get prosecuted..

 

Exactly - hence my thanks earlier on. Vehicle now duly SORNed!

 

Andy

[Tugger]

Generally HMRC can dip tanks wherever they please if they have reason to think an offence may have been committed (in fact HMRC have more powers including powers of entry than any other organisation - they can enter and search your home without warrant, something the Police cannot do), so I very much doubt whether you could stop them dipping tanks at an MV event. If the vehicle dipped has a road fund licence, irrespective of how it got to the show, it is illegal to have red in the tank. Even vehicle which are Ag registered can only use red when carrying out ag-related work, and attending a show isn't.

 

It doesn't matter that it wasn't driven there. If it is capable of being driven legally on the road, it cannot use red.

 

If you had a vehicle that wasn't road registered and was transported to the show, it could use red.

 

 

No. It has been stated previously and not just by myself that driving with red diesel (Gasoil) in your tanks is not an outright illegal activity.

 

A vehicle can quite legally fill up with red and then pay the outstanding duty AND vat at your local customs house. Admitedly not the most convenient of operations, but certainly, during the fuel crisis several years ago there were more than one driver that I know of, out of necessity who did just that. Understandably HMRC aren't too keen, I imagine it's a consideral faff because of the paperwork and it isn't something that's often requested.

 

A small point but I did qualify my statement by saying HMRC would have dificulty dipping AND taking action...but I agree and am well aware of HMRC's abilities;)

[Big Al]

A problem would be if you if your Fv432 were on private land using red diesel for 90% for the year & you attend the W&P show at Beltring!Even though it private land,is’nt it classed during the show as public highway?

I think you are right Nick dos it not say in the info pack that W&P issue?

Al

[utt61]

No. It has been stated previously and not just by myself that driving with red diesel (Gasoil) in your tanks is not an outright illegal activity.

 

A vehicle can quite legally fill up with red and then pay the outstanding duty AND vat at your local customs house. Admitedly not the most convenient of operations, but certainly, during the fuel crisis several years ago there were more than one driver that I know of, out of necessity who did just that. Understandably HMRC aren't too keen, I imagine it's a consideral faff because of the paperwork and it isn't something that's often requested.

 

A small point but I did qualify my statement by saying HMRC would have dificulty dipping AND taking action...but I agree and am well aware of HMRC's abilities;)

 

 

Agreed, sorry Tugger, I should have included this. Do you have to notify HMRC in advance, though? ISTR that during the last tanker drivers' strike HMRC relaxed their stance so that you could sort out the tax restrospectively?

[CVRTNick]

Luckily for me its a hypothetical question,as all my fleet is petrol,but if I was going down the diesel route I would use white diesel,as it gets rid of any tax questions + not much in it pricewise,alltough (I believe) you should add an addive so the fuel is compatible with older type seals & rubber.

[trustmeimamechanic]

& ignorance is not a defense.. without threads like this members may unintentionally break the law as they didn't know any difference but would still get prosecuted..

 

My point was not aimed at the Mill vehicle user's.... more that the customs and others may not of even thought about dipping some old ex mill vehicles untill it was brought to their notice.......

[Adrian Barrell]

more customs and others may not of even thought about dipping some old ex mill vehicles untill it was brought to their notice.......

 

Oh, they have...... I remember the road to Beltring having a few Reos and the like being checked some years ago.

[TooTallMike]

If anyone on here is using red in their vehicles illegally I would expect the full force of the law to be brought against them, whether at a show, on the road or wherever C&E deem appropriate. The rules are clear and there are no excuses. For the mileage our vehicles do the extra cost of white is all but irrelevant when compared with the costs of maintenance, storage etc.

 

- MG

[Adrian Scott]

I dont agree with breaking the law and i used to run my Reo on Derv , as M G said the cost saving for the few miles that i did wasnt worth worrying about but i do have a big isue with alot of these threads and the debates that are had , it puts it all over the internet for ever , why not keep quiet ( my polite word ) and just get on with it , who knows what damage certain people do our hobby !!!!

[utt61]

Off at a slight tangent, but still relevent. I was talking earlier this evening to a local farmer who offered his services to the County Council today to help clear some of the minor roads round here of snow. The council turned him down, since they insist that to do this he must a) have substantial public liability insurance and indemnify the council and b) use taxed fuel not red in the tractor whilst so doing, since it isn't agricultural activity.

 

There are times when I hate what the world is becoming.

[Sidewinder]

Guess that means I shouldn't have gone out and pulled that stuck lorry out of the village earlier and the half dozen or more cars that were stuck behind him and blocking the road with the telehandler then.

 

Again I don't agree with or condone breaking the law, but for the short time it was on the road would the fact that the fuel might not have been fully taxed (lets not forgot red diesel is still taxed, just not as heavily) really cheated the treasury out of millions of pounds...? So much for the big society!

 

Still never mind, I'll sleep soundly tonight.