question I know this may upset some folk....

[Porta]

....but it is just my opinion based on anecdotal, and some real world experience....

 

how is it that once a british bit of machinery becomes obsolete, it was the best thing since sliced bread????

 

This is despite years of complaints to the contrary whilst it was ever in service, whether it be an mg midget or a chieften...in fact, some things have been obsolete for years and are still in service...the landy springs to mind

 

*ducks and waits for flak*

 

just some examples:

grandfather went over with yanks on d'day, yes and got pinned down, as part of the effort to gain aerodrome...when they finally got of the beaches with the gear, and captured airfield, they were given a churchill with turret missing as tow vehicle (g'dad was a blacksmith in RAF and had trucks with forges on) it kept breaking down so was given an abandoned renault tank from WWI!!!! ever since then he bought renaults after having rileys, austins etc

loads of friends have landys...and i spend my time doing their sparkying...and theyre always moaning about gearboxes, transaxles, starters, etc.etc....two also have willys and dont use anything else when the sun shines

father (electrician) had a WWII quad (useful but underpowered and too hot as closed) in aden and then a saracen (unreiliable piece of junk he said...and they werenew then)...gave them both back when the FFL 'lent' him a willys of lybian wwII era, for his personal use(he fixed one of their vehicles)...(which he later swapped for a citroen light 15)....

personally I've continually fixed....MG midgets, MGB, moggie 1000s, (oil leak city, crap electrics, brakes as well as shoddy electrics), triumph stag, sprint and hearald (the herald was easily the best of the bunch but others electrics and cooling systems cr*p) capris, escorts, cortinas, (rust buckets and electrics), jag mk II and giant (starter circuits and a heating system designed by a masochist)

 

so when I get the micky taken for liking classic italian gear and relying of fiats most of my working life...dont tell me faults are not character...folk in glass houses...etcetcetc....:cool2:...hehehe

[markbg]

When you look at the Modern British Army of today using

 

MAN Trucks

Austrian Pinzgauers

Hagglunds

 

All readily availabe, tried and tested and work !

 

I remember the birth of the SA 80 Rifle and the billions of pounds spent on its development, I was one of many Soldiers who test fired it and passed back the comments that were ignored...why didnt the Government just shell out and buy the tried and tested American Amerlite?

 

 

Probably the worst thing we found with the original rifles issued (SA80) was that there was no magazine release shroud so you'd be walking along and a stand to would be shouted out only for you to find you'd triggered the release catch against your body and you had no magazine in the rifle *doh*

 

particuarly embarassing whilst doing a PNC on someone looking as intimidating as possible only to have your magazine clatter to the floor :shocked:

[fesm_ndt]

I think on the 5.56 versus 7.62 the 5.56 SS109 round is far superior of the two as:

 

- lighter and can carry more (more ammo is often a good thing)

- better penetration due to the tungsten core (we compared it on service issue steel helmets with the ss109 round always penetrating, SLR not)

- better kill rate due to the air gap under the copper jacket (something the soviets did for years)

[timbo]

My lightweight is a pain in the ar*e, but I still love it !

 

My point is there is a big difference between owning a vehicle as an enthusiast and going to war in it.

[paulbrook]

I think we are going off thread here shipmates. Why does the Army look back with fondness at all the old obsolete and useless stuff (and the list is long believe me....) Well mostly because a squaddie isn't happy unless he (or she) is moaning; thus it isn't that a Millitant Mk 1 is a good truck, it is just that it provides a useful hook to hang your moan on ("not as good cross country as a milly - now there was a truck")

 

As for the kit (and that includes SA80) that the Army is currently using, regardless of where it comes from, it's the best on the planet - end of. Other nations (including the Yanks) drool over our machinery and personal equipment. So we might love our MKs, but no-one would give you a thank you for one in reality, especially when there is a nice armoured SV EPLS with a .50 on the top to play with!

[paulbrook]

Oh - and if I may (in response to Artistrifles) there are lots of recent examples of bayonets on SA80 being just the ticket in some up close and personal encounters with the bad guys! Its not the rifle folks - its the infantryman, gunner, engineer, loggie, whatever on the other end that counts.

[c101 comando]

i think the british for some reason just likes to love a pile of crap ldv vans spring to mind and landrovers i dont wish to knock the old sheep lugger but my brother in law loves them and as a result he is a far better welder than me

 

he cant get over the fact that my 30 year old jeep still runs its original engine gearbox and axles and has never had the chasis welded.......he hates me for it

 

good luck to all evan maxi and alegro owners but then again they need all the luck they can get

[steveo578]

fesm_ndt

I think on the 5.56 versus 7.62 the 5.56 SS109 round is far superior of the two as:

........- better penetration due to the tungsten core (we compared it on service issue steel helmets with the ss109 round always penetrating, SLR not)

Alot of official and anecdotal research has been done into the relative merits of various .556 rounds including ss109 versa 7.62 Nato and russian AP and even standard ball -it has been found that although .556 AP can penetrate the standard 1/4inch plate there is practicaly nothing left of the penetrator, unlike both types of 7.62 rounds have damaging residual effects, that is steel cores and lead spall pass clean through. Additionally although the SS109/M855 has better AP capability, the M193 and the earlier .223 ball, that the M855 replaced is regarded as having a better tumble effect against "soft" targets.

 

better kill rate due to the air gap under the copper jacket

The SS109/M855 does not have an air space it is a slug penetrator with a fully shaped balistic lead nose covered with a FMJ.

 

(something the soviets did for years)

I could reprise in detail the various types of Soviet/Russian round but its really a little off topic, sufficient to say that they have numerous attempts to "improve effect" of the standard 7.62 x 39 ball including the M65, the air spaced, alloy and none fused alloy (so called liquid core) bullets all of which were cause it to wobble on impact- these were more common on the 5.45 x 39 M74 a weapon which was found seriously wanting in Afghanistan. The famous Wolf 7.62 x 39 round is a Russian commercial round mainly used for hunting with SKS and other civilian weapons.

 

Steve

[steveo578]

paulbrook

I think we are going off thread here shipmates. Why does the Army look back with fondness at all the old obsolete and useless stuff

I don't think we are getting off thread -the whole thing is a generational thing, 30 years ago people liked L1A1s people are fond of what they know, perverse people like members of HMVF are even known to like stuff from eariler generations often stuff that had poor value but lots of character- I like Churchill tanks and No4 rifles so I must be 90years old.

 

As for the kit (and that includes SA80) that the Army is currently using, regardless of where it comes from, it's the best on the planet - end of.

Can't agree with that point, I doubt all the c**p that has been reported in the last 5 years or so about the poor quality of kit boots, Snatch Landies, etc ad nausem has been solely motovated to engineer a change in government or to demoralise the public at home.

 

Oh - and if I may (in response to Artistrifles) there are lots of recent examples of bayonets on SA80 being just the ticket in some up close and personal encounters with the bad guys!

That was not questioned, Artistrifles said that a SLR with bayonet has a longer reach over a SA80 and that the heavy construction made for a better infighting weapon- I can add to that on several occasions the shear solidness of the SLR saved lives by taking an incoming bullet -at least twice in N.I.

 

 

 

Its not the rifle folks - its the infantryman, gunner, engineer, loggie, whatever on the other end that counts.

Sometimes it makes a difference, having a "bang bang jam" can really end your day, but I am certain no-one on this forum disputes the quality of our servicemen.

 

Steve

[paulbrook]

All fair comment - but readers will note that I said "currently" when referring to the quality of kit. There has been a lot of comment about quality, with the likes of snatch being up there. But there are also plenty of folk serving who rate snatch in certain conditions - I flew out of Iraq once together with a couple of casualties who spent the entire trip back arguing which was better, snatch or warrior. Horses for courses was the conclusion. It is also astonishing how quickly things become obsolete in the current fight, and the last 5 years have seen incredible changes - and to get back to the thread there isn't much looking back with rose tinted spectacles at what went before.

 

That said, I still think a Mk1 Militant is a top truck!

[Richard Farrant]

perverse people like members of HMVF are even known to like stuff from eariler generations often stuff that had poor value but lots of character- I like Churchill tanks and No4 rifles so I must be 90years old.

 

 

 

I loved using the SMLE rifle........so that puts me a little older than you, Steve :-D

[berna2vm]

Anything AEC was the best!!! From the time when 'made in England' meant something good :-).

[fesm_ndt]

The SS109/M855 does not have an air space it is a slug penetrator with a fully shaped balistic lead nose covered with a FMJ.

 

Steve

 

Ours did. Always sticks in my mind as was against some convention to use dum dum rounds but a little triangle of empty space under the copper jacket was acceptable. Not sure if still current but was the construction in 1987.

 

As for squaddies moaning sometimes it is legit but also sometimes the media makes mountains out of molehills as a big story can be made from nothing as all the fingers can point back to the government (always a desirable target).

 

So seeing the thread was about 'junk' the UK MOD bought:

 

- what would the worst vehicle purchased by the MOD of been?

- will the RB44 ever be looked back on with fondness?

[steveo578]

fesm_ndt

Ours did. Always sticks in my mind as was against some convention to use dum dum rounds but a little triangle of empty space under the copper jacket was acceptable. Not sure if still current but was the construction in 1987.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly -it's been around a fair amount of time the photo is a section that has appeared in a number of publications web sites etc. I have added labelling to define the component parts.

 

As long as a round has a full metal jacket of consistant hardness, lacking striations, does not contain substances that may explode,(for example mercury fulminate) or contains deliberately toxic material it is OK as regards the current convention. Air spaces and liquid alloy materials contained within the FMJ are OK, personally I've never been happy with this -the 1907 Haugue convention say a bullet is not to constructed to cause unnecessary injury or suffering -but that's lawyers.

 

The 1907 convention made the MkV .303 illegal as it did not have an FMJ and was replaced with the Mk7 which has a FMJ with a pith soft nose beneath the jacket, causing it to wobble. In WW1 the US forces in Europe issued an AP 30-06 to snippers called M1917, it was a steel penetrator with soft lead nose as a balistic cap but without a FMJ -it was fairly quickly withdrawn for fear of summery justice being meeted by Germans on any captured soldiers.

 

Steve

[fesm_ndt]

Definately different to the cross section I was physically given to look at many years ago as the one I looked at had a 2mm triangle of air at the pointy end. Again as you said things change, I am also not sure if it was a Aussie made one or a Belgium one as at the time the Minimi was being trialled. Which brings back another memory of them doing a diasassembly and the firing pin flew out, so obvious thought was 'can that happen in a field strip'

[steveo578]

fesm_ndt Re: I know this may upset some folk....

Definately different to the cross section I was physically given to look at many years ago as the one I looked at had a 2mm triangle of air at the pointy end

That sounds like a possible variant to improve "capture" on striking face hardened amour- in a similar fashion to the APCBC rounds used in A/T weapons. I think though I cannot turn up a cross section of one (as yet) that the ADI/Thalid F1 may be different- which probably would be the round you used. there are at least 25 versions of M855/SS109, due in part to the huge number produced and different manufacturers and the on going need to resovle the perceived problems with the kill capabilites.

 

Steve

[The Bedford Boys]

Reliability is for pussies. BUY BRITISH!!!!!

[Big ray]

or just jump straight to where we are now - adopting a 7.62mm Armalite;

 

 

 

Dodges...oh look here comes another dodge, followed by another do....snore; about as much character as a Mcburger...

The british used the dodge in the far east during ww2 and considerewd them to be extremely reliable on the minimum of maitenance..... not to mention the four wheel drive during the monsoons... dont knock it.:cool2:

[Big ray]

....but it is just my opinion based on anecdotal, and some real world experience....

 

how is it that once a british bit of machinery becomes obsolete, it was the best thing since sliced bread????

 

This is despite years of complaints to the contrary whilst it was ever in service, whether it be an mg midget or a chieften...in fact, some things have been obsolete for years and are still in service...the landy springs to mind

 

*ducks and waits for flak*

 

just some examples:

grandfather went over with yanks on d'day, yes and got pinned down, as part of the effort to gain aerodrome...when they finally got of the beaches with the gear, and captured airfield, they were given a churchill with turret missing as tow vehicle (g'dad was a blacksmith in RAF and had trucks with forges on) it kept breaking down so was given an abandoned renault tank from WWI!!!! ever since then he bought renaults after having rileys, austins etc

loads of friends have landys...and i spend my time doing their sparkying...and theyre always moaning about gearboxes, transaxles, starters, etc.etc....two also have willys and dont use anything else when the sun shines

father (electrician) had a WWII quad (useful but underpowered and too hot as closed) in aden and then a saracen (unreiliable piece of junk he said...and they werenew then)...gave them both back when the FFL 'lent' him a willys of lybian wwII era, for his personal use(he fixed one of their vehicles)...(which he later swapped for a citroen light 15)....

personally I've continually fixed....MG midgets, MGB, moggie 1000s, (oil leak city, crap electrics, brakes as well as shoddy electrics), triumph stag, sprint and hearald (the herald was easily the best of the bunch but others electrics and cooling systems cr*p) capris, escorts, cortinas, (rust buckets and electrics), jag mk II and giant (starter circuits and a heating system designed by a masochist)

 

so when I get the micky taken for liking classic italian gear and relying of fiats most of my working life...dont tell me faults are not character...folk in glass houses...etcetcetc....:cool2:...hehehe

 

Scamell Pioneer... Gardner 6LW engine... fantastic cross country performance... buckets of room in the cab... get you anywhere and back... indestructable..... need I say more, and its british to the core..... fly the flag with pride.:yawn:

[montie]

I agree with you on most points but that is what makes us different! If it wasn't for our attitude and dedication, there would only have been a couple of pics in a book here and there. All would have been gas-axed and molten into new coffee-tin crap that we buy nowadays!

[XS650]

A lot of the Brit stuff was the best IN ITS TIME Land Rover Series 11a's , AEC Trucks , Bedford Trucks , Morris Minors, Triumph Bonnevilles! all the best in the 1950's ,1960's and the world couldn't get enough of ' em .

Problem was we never updated the designs and carried on building the same stuff.

A big USA dealer in the 70's wanted to buy the Triumph Motorcycle factory because he said he could sell Triumphs to the guys who wanted to tinker with their bikes and Hondas to to the guys who just wanted to ride them. Think the tinkering aspect is why brit stuff still adored.

Edited August 20, 2010 by XS650

[Meteor mark 4B]

a. Why is it many people always knock our own stuff? Seems to have been a national hobby for years.

b. I'm not quite sure Pinzgauers and MANs are that reliable, and lots of the parts are as far as I know, VERY expensive.

c. On this thread somewhere it was said the squaddie loves to moan, particularly about his kit. Quite right too.All squaddies moan, been there done that.

d. If you want a Toyota or a Dodge, or a J**p, ok, but I'll stick with my Land Rover thanks.

[R Cubed]

Series Land Rovers, there are still so many about that has to say something about them ! Basic and easily fixable almost anywhere, their chassis are a box section so considering the majority are still original and were used by farmers on the fields ect, caked in mud, then on to the buyer who wanted it for 4x4 off roading, once fed up with that then sold it on, I think they are doing well. The Jeep has a " C " section chassis so cant possibly rot as you cant fill it with water and mud, well not much. Much the same as the Bedfords and almost all Trucks have a " C " section chassis, I wonder what people would be saying now if the Series Land Rovers had been designed with a " C " section chassis. I know a couple of Land Rover owners who have had them from almost new and looked after them, these are still strong and drive well.

 

Just my bit.

 

What a shame the Great British Empire and we cant produce anything now....

[berna2vm]

A channel section chassis is superior for corrosion resistancy but is heavier than a box type chassis of an equivalent rigidity.I have never had a problem with a Toyota chassis,though :-)

[marmon]

I suggest you watch Top Gear South America special, Toyota Vs Suzuki vs Range Rover and what won? Range Rover of course... "makes you proud" Toyota ended up with 3 springs and 1 diff, hee hee

British are the best designed vehicle's full stop.Admittedly the assembly was not that great on occasion mainly due to out dated machinery. Reputation also suffered in certain countries because they just didn't have a clue how to fix them, if its not a V8 push rod, live axle, forget it.

 

We have Triumph and Aston, you have Harley and GM or are they out of business?

[ww2rupert]

I have a 1943 Austin K2 GS truck, it just keeps going & going (it'll break down now i've said that!)

I'm British and proud of it:angel: i would never dream of owning a yank vehicle, just like i will never do yank re-enactment, British all the way for me!

I'm a motor mechanic by trade, and as long as you maintain them they will keep going, plus they have bags of character!

Thats just my personal feelings:-)

 

Colin