Children, seatbelts and MVs

[rosie]

Where do we stand? Hubby doesn't like to take the kiddies out for long journeys in the Jimmy as there are obviously no seatbelts and he fears for their safety. Do any of you know the law regarding vehicles without seatbelts and children being allowed to sit in them?

Many thanks in anticipation :-)

[Richard Notton]

Where do we stand? Hubby doesn't like to take the kiddies out for long journeys in the Jimmy as there are obviously no seatbelts and he fears for their safety. Do any of you know the law regarding vehicles without seatbelts and children being allowed to sit in them?

Many thanks in anticipation :-)

 

I googled it Rosie and it would seem R³ would be in trouble.

Whilst adults are exempted in old vehicles that never had belts fitted, it seems the law is retrospective where children are concerned and they must have belts/restraints/seats as demanded by the current regulations for their age/size no matter what the vehicle is.

 

I'm bound to say its one area where the law isn't an ass.

[Tugger]

 

I'm bound to say its one area where the law isn't an ass.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, so much more now I've got my own, plus the introduction of booster seats for those under 12 or ??ft will make the whole thing more tricky to get around.

[andreadavide]

It all depends on the need for type approval or not for the "hooks" on the vehicle.

I've made on an agricoltural vehicle a few fixings to fasten solidly a child seat with its own belts for my three years old daughter. I'd do the same on my rover 8, but being the fixing point not "type approved", i could weld the child seat on the frame and the Banania Police Forces wouldn't be happy all the same.

Andrea

[rosie]

Thanks for the reply guys :-)

Its as I thought, its ashame as they both really want to ride in the truck :oops: so fitting seat seems to be his next job. you might see him at Overlord adjusting the Jimmy you never know!

[Mark]

You could always use webbing to strap them down with...........its authentic

[lightweight]

Wow, nasty shock this thread.

 

I have no belts in the Lightweight and I often have son and assorted friends in the front or on the rear bench seats. They don't need the boosters any more thankfully, but it had never occurred to me that I was in breach of the law.

 

How the hell do you fit belts in the back??

[Richard Notton]

Wow, nasty shock this thread.

 

I have no belts in the Lightweight and I often have son and assorted friends in the front or on the rear bench seats. They don't need the boosters any more thankfully, but it had never occurred to me that I was in breach of the law.

 

How the hell do you fit belts in the back??

 

Difficult isn't it?

As best I can tell from the plethora of gen on it through Google, but extremely thin about pre-seat belt laws; all minors have to be restrained with the appropriate current spec equipment.

 

Home-made anchor points where none exist would be a legal minefield probably but we'd hope a engineered solution showing some mechanical nous would pass muster.

 

I suspect like many things it would take a test case in court and that might only occur when a littl'un gets injured or worse and perhaps best not to go there.

 

Another unwanted side effect would be the media and do-gooder spotlight that gets turned on to ex-mil vehicles in private hands. . . . . . . . . .

 

Difficult it is.

 

Incidentally for Jack, you can't use the correct an polite word s-p-a-r-s-e as your anti-naughty word digital filter thingy translates it to spbum. The Concise Oxford Dic gives it as "thinly dispersed" on page 1376 but the mighty tome has no reference to "spbum". :-D

[Poptopshed]

As mentioned further up, the belt laws apply to kids but as long as adults are using side facing bench seats, no belts are required if not fitted when manufactured. Belts must be fitted when forward facing seats are fitted. Re the Ltwt, what year is it? It should be fitted with a minimum of static belts.

 

[lightweight]

September 1973.

 

Didnt have belts when I bought it and has passed two MOT's without so I have assumed it doesnt need them!

[Larry Hayward]

NEW regulations governing the use of child car seats came into force on 18th September 2006.

 

The changes mean that:

 

Children under three years old must use the correct child seat when travelling in ANY car or goods vehicle.

 

Children aged between three and under 12 must use the correct child seat/booster seat/booster cushion when travelling in cars or goods vehicles until they reach about 4ft 5ins (135cms).

 

There is no exception as to the age of the vehicles so it would be illegal to carry a small child in an old WW2 truck without the correct seat & seatbelt and you cannot use the old get out clause that no belts were fitted when it left the factory in 1940.

 

However once a child in over 135cms they don't need a seat/ booster or seatbelt to ride in a vehicle that does not have them fitted as standard.

 

Obviously for vehicles fitted with seat belts only in the front, all these have to be used before ANYONE can ride in the back unrestrained. For anyone with one child under 135cm, with seat belts only in the front, they would have to sit the child in the front on a child seat / booster and belt them up next to the driver. All the larger people could then ride in the back!

 

 

 

 

 

[Snapper]

This is a chief reason I bought the Iltis. Four proper seat-belts. One happier wife. I don't suggest it is a reason for everyone to buy one; but if anyone new to the hobby is thinking about it, then a modern-ish pig ugly motor with above average spares availability PLUS the seat-belts is a definite selling point. AND NO.....I'm not trying to sell mine.

[TooTallMike]

Hi folks,

 

I'm re-awakening an old thread to see if any of our newer members have any thoughts on solutions to carrying small children in older vehicles which don't have type-approved mounting points for seat belts.

 

Has anyone ever been prosecuted or cautioned for this type of offence?

 

Has anyone ever had their own 'engineered' solution subjected to scrutiny by any officialdom?

 

- MG

[mike65]

Depends what you mean by small children.

 

[h=3]If your vehicle has no seat belts[/h] You can't carry any children under three years old in vehicles without seatbelts, like classic cars. If you're travelling with children over three years old, they must only sit in the back seats.

 

Lifted from Government website

 

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Roadsafetyadvice/DG_4022064

 

 

Mike

[Nudge]

Re the Lightweight, try Exmoor Trim.

http://www.exmoortrim.co.uk/catalogue/browse/79-seat-belts.html?sef=hc

 

They do them for all models, i'm sure you can fit them in the lightweight.

[TooTallMike]

Depends what you mean by small children.

 

If your vehicle has no seat belts

 

You can't carry any children under three years old in vehicles without seatbelts, like classic cars. If you're travelling with children over three years old, they must only sit in the back seats.

 

Lifted from Government website

 

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Roadsafetyadvice/DG_4022064

 

 

Mike

Thanks Mike,

 

I'm aware of the law and the usual dribble that the govt and child seat vendors come out with in relation to this, but as an example the quote above is inaccurate: "...vehicles without seatbelts, like classic cars." - well, plenty of classic cars have had seatbelts retro-fitted and therefore children can be carried so they are wrong to generalise.

 

I am minded to fit belts to some of my vehicles to comply with this ruling but I would like to see how others have approached this.

 

I'm interested to know what is happening in the real world where people are satisfied that what they are doing is safe and legal. I imagine this will be self-selecting as only those who believe they are legal are likely to post anyway .

 

I'd also be interested to know whether one can fit just one seatbelt, i.e. to the seat where the child will then be carried?

 

- MG

[TooTallMike]

Re the Lightweight, try Exmoor Trim.

http://www.exmoortrim.co.uk/catalogue/browse/79-seat-belts.html?sef=hc

 

They do them for all models, i'm sure you can fit them in the lightweight.

 

Thanks Nudge,

 

The Lightweight question was from back in 2007 but it's certainly interesting and useful to see that Exmoor have such a wide range.

 

Regards - MG

[Zero-Five-Two]

This may be of help to you

 

The link below takes you to the VOSA Inspectors manual for buses and coaches. Lot of heavy reading, but if you fight your way to section 3 it deals with seat belts. Towards the end of the section it details what is considered to be suitable methods of retro fitting seat belts, with lots of pictures of examples.

 

I know this is for buses and coaches but the construction standards are the same accross the board. e.g. If an M12 bolt is specified then that is what has to be used whether you are fitting to a bus, truck or tank.

 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/2012%20Consolidated%20PSV%20Inspection%20Manual.pdf

[mike65]

Thanks Mike,

I'd also be interested to know whether one can fit just one seatbelt, i.e. to the seat where the child will then be carried?

- MG

 

My understanding on the retro fitting of seat belts is that how many you fiy is entirely up to you.

In fact my brother fitted a single one in the rear of there '65 Mustang for my nephew and it has passed about 10 MOT's like that.

They do however need to be "approved" and fitted in accordance with requirements. You need things like spreader plates and reinforcement as fitting a seatbelt mounting to thin metal or canvas would not be any good in an accident. In fact could be worse.

It also depends on the vehicle, I do not believe they have ever come up with an effective belt for side facing bench seats.

When I was a lad my parents had a Trasit minibus (or should I say MPV?) He fitted seatbelts to 3 of the seats in the back, forward facing These were like a 4 point harness ant bolted down through the floor. Suppose they were racing harnesses for kids.

 

Mike

[croc]

There is pleanty on the subject on the web, such as http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/child_safety/seatbelts.html

 

My understanding of it is that children under 3 must be in the correct child seat, but over 3 they don't need any restraint in a vehicle not fitted with belts. If belts are fitted the correct seat/booster must be used until age 12 or 135cm.

 

To use my Scammell as an example; as a locomotive it is exempted from seatbelt requirements, my son is nearly 2. If I wanted to take him on the road in it he would need to be in a childseat until his 3rd birthday, after that he could be "loose".

In a pre-'67 Gipsy (no rear seats) without belts a childseat is needed until 3. (I can see no reason that this should not be fitted using a ratchet strap, as long as it is secure) Over 3 no restraint is required, but he will be getting one anyway. (required in front seats until 135cm/12years)

So far, when we have been to shows he has gone in the car with his mum. When it comes to it I might well rachet strap a car seat in for him.

 

There is no way I am going to have a three year old loose in the cab, whatever the law lets me do.

Edited February 3, 2012 by croc
see post #22

[andym]

There is pleanty on the subject on the web, such as http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/child_safety/seatbelts.html

 

My understanding of it is that children under 3 must be in the correct child seat, but over 3 they don't need any restraint in a vehicle not fitted with belts. If belts are fitted the correct seat/booster must be used until age 12 or 135cm.

 

To use my Scammell as an example; as a locomotive it is exempted from seatbelt requirements, my son is nearly 2. If I wanted to take him on the road in it he would need to be in a childseat until his 3rd birthday, after that he could be "loose".

 

In a pre-'67 Gipsy (no rear seats) without belts a childseat is needed until 3. (I can see no reason that this should not be fitted using a ratchet strap, as long as it is secure) Over 3 no restraint is required, but he will be getting one anyway.

 

 

As usual the advice (particularly that given by the AA) is confused as it doesn't properly consider vehicles old enough to not be fitted with seatbelts. To quote from the original DirectGov reference above:

 

[h=3]"If your vehicle has no seat belts[/h] You can't carry any children under three years old in vehicles without seatbelts, like classic cars. If you're travelling with children over three years old, they must only sit in the back seats."

 

Andy

[croc]

Maybe this is a better link http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/law/

Or this one http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Road_Traffic_Law/Seat_Belts

another http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/offences/seat_belts.htm

 

The law is designed for the vast majority of road users, those of us with vintage vehicles are a small minority. To me it is quite clear and consistant.

1. under threes must be in a proper child seat.
   
2. over threes (under 135cm/12years) in front seats must use a proper child restraint.
   
3. over threes may travel unrestrained in back seats if belts not fitted.
   

 

Having looked again at the regulations I was wrong about being allowed to travel loose in the cab, but why would you?

I would still rather fix a childseat in the front than let them loose in the back.

[Tony B]

Whilst I'm hells bent on keeping kids safe. I wonder now how I survived chilhhod.:-\

[andym]

 

Whilst I'm hells bent on keeping kids safe. I wonder now how I survived chilhhod.:-\

Whilst driving along a single carriageway road this morning with vehicles approaching me at a closing speed in the region of 120mph a few feet to one side, I concluded that if motorcars were invented today we'd never be allowed to use them!

[mike65]

Whilst I'm hells bent on keeping kids safe. I wonder now how I survived chilhhod.:-\

 

Ah but what makes you think you survived?

We could all be in some sort of strange after life.:confused:

 

Mike