Old Bill Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 A bit more progress today. Dad has had a go at the gearbox lid and it is looking much better. Selector fork guide casting. Foundry mark. I wonder who they were? You may remember that when we removed the input shaft, the first bearing cage was in the cover in bits so we had to take it out of the box. I decided to have a go at removing the nut which holds the bearings. It is 2 3/4" AF down a hole and I don't have a spanner for it. As the nut is thin, I didn't think it would be too tight so I tried a bit of a lash-up by putting two bits of packing inside the Dennis hub-nut spanner. Amazingly, it worked! Once slackened off, the nut just unscrewed and the centre shaft pushed out. I was expecting it to be a difficult job. After the first clean up. The cages in both bearings have failed so they must both be replaced. Much to my surprise, they are metric with 60mm bores, 130mm OD and 26mm thick. The 26mm thickness appears to be discontinued and I can only get 31mm. However, I think I can get away with the thicker bearings by shortening the intermediate spacer collar. Time to remove the gland from the end cover. The only way I had to apply torque to this was to use the 36" stillson wrench. I hate doing that as it marks the nut but needs must. It let go eventually and I cleaned them all up. This bronze cover screws into the bearing carrier to trap the bearings but unfortunately, the thread is shot. It started out as 5 1/4" x 16tpi but there is not much left. I must decide whether to repair or replace the part now. Dad is pressing on with cleaning stuff and having a lovely time. It really is a horrible job! More pics another day. Steve 🙂 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 " I must decide whether to repair or replace the part now." Make new! You haven't flexed your pattern making skills very much on this project so far, so out with the MDF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Asciidv said: Make new! You haven't flexed your pattern making skills very much on this project so far, so out with the MDF! I would think that building it up (with silver solder, or brazing rod, or MIG brazing wire) and re-cutting the thread would retain more originality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrward Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Is there enough material to turn off the thread to a shoulder and then solder on a ring that you would then re-cut the thread on? What ever you do you are still cutting the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 The bearing carrier and bronze cover: were they originally scotched after assembly? Or is this an on-service modification to try and keep the cover tight, possibly after the threads had become worn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flandersflyer Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) On 1/8/2023 at 9:37 PM, Old Bill said: A bit more progress today. Dad has had a go at the gearbox lid and it is looking much better. Selector fork guide casting. Foundry mark. I wonder who they were? You may remember that when we removed the input shaft, the first bearing cage was in the cover in bits so we had to take it out of the box. I decided to have a go at removing the nut which holds the bearings. It is 2 3/4" AF down a hole and I don't have a spanner for it. As the nut is thin, I didn't think it would be too tight so I tried a bit of a lash-up by putting two bits of packing inside the Dennis hub-nut spanner. Amazingly, it worked! Once slackened off, the nut just unscrewed and the centre shaft pushed out. I was expecting it to be a difficult job. After the first clean up. The cages in both bearings have failed so they must both be replaced. Much to my surprise, they are metric with 60mm bores, 130mm OD and 26mm thick. The 26mm thickness appears to be discontinued and I can only get 31mm. However, I think I can get away with the thicker bearings by shortening the intermediate spacer collar. Time to remove the gland from the end cover. The only way I had to apply torque to this was to use the 36" stillson wrench. I hate doing that as it marks the nut but needs must. It let go eventually and I cleaned them all up. This bronze cover screws into the bearing carrier to trap the bearings but unfortunately, the thread is shot. It started out as 5 1/4" x 16tpi but there is not much left. I must decide whether to repair or replace the part now. Dad is pressing on with cleaning stuff and having a lovely time. It really is a horrible job! More pics another day. Steve 🙂 Cut a shoulder on it and launch it in her freezer to shrink summat on then re-cut thread...? Or get someone to do an Adam Booth on it and spray weld build up with puddle gun & powder...? Edited January 10, 2023 by flandersflyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citroman Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 You can put a few brass screws in the threaded part to fix it and than cut the thread in them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) Hi Chaps. Many thanks for all of your thoughts. I am back on the case now! On 1/8/2023 at 9:51 PM, Asciidv said: " I must decide whether to repair or replace the part now." Make new! You haven't flexed your pattern making skills very much on this project so far, so out with the MDF! I could make a complete new one as that would be a known quantity. However, I do like to use a repaired original part wherever I can. If I replaced this one, I would have to store it for ever! Fear not, Barry, I have been working on a really quite tricky pattern for the Thornycroft and I will post on that very shortly. Building up the surface and re-cutting is an option. Although I love silver solder, I don't think a layer of that would be thick enough as I need to add the best part of 1/8" to the diameter. Brazing would probably be OK but to build it up locally really needs an acetylene torch which we don't have and you know what my welding skills are like. Current thinking is to turn the whole flange off from the back and silver solder a new bronze ring into position. Then I should just have to turn it back and screw-cut it. Dad is on the look-out for a suitable piece of bronze and I will keep you posted with progress. On 1/9/2023 at 9:54 AM, Doc said: The bearing carrier and bronze cover: were they originally scotched after assembly? Or is this an on-service modification to try and keep the cover tight, possibly after the threads had become worn? I think that the locking screw was an original feature as similar screws are used on the wheel seal bronzes. However, as you can see here, locking additions were made in the shape of a piece of steel, top and bottom, which engage with the bronze cover. This problem has been simmering for a long while and now that we know it is there, we have to fix it! The bearings are on order and I will keep you posted with progress. Steve🙂 Edited January 10, 2023 by Old Bill 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 For a bit of light relief, I have made the catch for the gearbox cover. We have one complete cover and the the lid without catch for this one. I could have robbed the other box but chose to make up the replacement now to save having to do it for the next one. The catch works by pushing it down through a slot in the flange on the gearbox lid and turning it a bit before releasing when the spring holds it firm. A nice little fabrication. And the same for the cross-bar. A quick rummage in the mixed springs box and ready for some paint. In the mean time, Dad has been pushing on with the horrible cleaning job of the box itself. The time has come to turn it over so that he can get to the bottom. Fortunately, it fits the engine stand perfectly at a nice working height. Looking a lot better! You may remember that we fitted the engine and clutch not so long ago and I was concerned that the clutch centre was so proud that we couldn't fit the spring. Dad had fitted new leather but, by the way of these things, the thickness was a bit variable and it had pushed upwards around the screws so I determined that it would have to be machined to true it up and thin it down a bit. The challenge was how to do it as machining leather is not something I have tried! I found that the gap bed of the Colchester left just enough room but with no holes in the casting, I couldn't bolt it to the face plate. I therefore made a spigot for the headstock and pulled it up with a draw bolt. I didn't expect it to have to produce any torque, just to turn the assembly truly. This worked quite well so I set about mounting the angle grinder in the toolpost which was set over at 10°. It was a bit of a lash-up but firm enough. I did give it a good tug before proceeding! With the lathe on bottom speed and a grade 60 sanding disc in the grinder I traversed the toolpost. It worked well although the dust was a bit grim! I made a number of 20 thou cuts until I was just about to kiss the highest rivet and stopped there. When I tried it in the flywheel, it certainly got a grip but did not go in as far as I had hoped. However, I daren't take any more off as the leather is now quite thin in places. The spring will have to be compressed to solid height to allow me to fit it and that is going to be an interesting exercise in itself. I am hoping that the first use will bed the leather in and allow me to fit the tensioning nut properly. Getting it into gear for the first time may be a challenge but we shall see! Steve 🙂 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrunt & Farthing Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 That gearbox looks lovely. As I am about to tackle some similar tasks on my 1929 Leyland (mentioned on another thread on HMVF), what was the method used for Aluminium de-oxidisation and do you intend to treat the the sparkly restored ally with anything to keep it so shiny and new? There are a lot of aluminium de-oxidisers out there, but are they any good and do they beat good old fashioned hard work with a wire brush in a grinder/drill? You may of course already have mentioned this in which I shall pay more attention in class in the future! Thanks Dave (S&F) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minesweeper Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) All very simple and basic - scrape off as much of the congealed grease/oil as possible - then brushed with paraffin to move as much of any other remaining grease/oil. Then wipe down followed then by rotary wire wheel brush on the hand drill to take it back to clean metal. Edited January 31, 2023 by Minesweeper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 Well, I have been back on the gearbox input shaft so here is a progress report. I have obtained a very generous bronze blank, so big, in fact, that it wouldn't go in the lathe and I had to fret out a disc using a sawing wire. It took a while! Next move was to set the casting up in the four-jaw and turn off the old thread. That all went nicely. Then I set the blank up and trepanned out the centre. That is a useful piece of bronze so I was not going to turn it into swarf! I turned a rebate to fit the remains of the casting. And then silver soldered it together. I suddenly remembered that I had this. Dad picked it up for me but it has had very little use and is immaculate. I use it rarely but when you want one, you want one! It was rather remiss of me but I didn't snap the turning process. I had measured it up and reckoned that it was 5 1/4" dia x 16 tpi. thread to cut. I did that with a single point and then cleaned it up with a chaser. However, the casting wouldn't fit! On much closer measurement, I realised that it is 5 7/32" dia x 16tpi. so once I had cut a bit further, all was well. Peerless thread standards are a story in their own right! On removal, I was very pleased with the result. The metal colour is interesting. The ring was definitely bronze but looks more like brass. Fortunately for me it turned more like brass so the job wasn't too hard. As you can see, the new bearing is thicker than the original. Fortunately the bearings are spaced apart by a sleeve so I shortened that by the same amount. First bearing in and the oil shield dropped onto the shaft. It took a lot of wangling to get it all together but eventually, they were aligned. They were a lovely smooth fit but just a bit more than I could push. I don't like hitting bearings so the whole assembly went in the press which soon made short work of it. Very little force required, just a steady even push until it was home. Now to secure the bearings on the shaft. The change in length of the spacer meant that I could use a different tab on the lock washer which was fortunate as the regular one broke off in my fingers. The bronze cover sets the end float. I have no figures for what that should be so I simply did it up tight and then backed it off a bit before drilling for the locking screw. That was tapped 1/4" x 27 UNS to try to remain consistent with the rest of the box. Hopefully, it won't be my problem again! All together and ready to fit. The gland is not yet packed as Dad has the stocks of felt but that can be done in due course. Reassembly planned for the next visit! Steve 🙂 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Coates Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Stunning! I am in awe😱! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Progress has been a bit varied recently and I haven't had a story to tell although there are things in the pipeline. They will surface soon but in the meantime, we have been doing a bit with Dad plugging away at all the rough jobs. With the box inverted, he has persisted with his cleaning up and started to paint the ironwork. This flange was missing a nut, UNS of course. I slotted some that we had previously had made so that was soon sorted. The top face was missing 11 studs. again 3/8" UNS so Dad has made those up. Making studs can be very tedious. Of course, he had to fit them upside down! I went down to Devon with the aim of reassembling the box. Alas, it was not to be but we did do a selection of tidying and preparation jobs. First was to turn the box over again and have another go at cleaning out the last few bits. Dad has been cleaning up the shafts with paraffin. This is the layshaft. Then the mainshaft. It soon became obvious where the chunks of teeth had come from. I don't think they will cause any trouble so I had a poke to make sure there were no loose pieces and we will put it back as it is. The input shaft nose bearng on the RH end is a double row, self aligning ball race. Once the oil was washed out, it became obvious that it was completely shot so we got on line to order a new one. Not the end of the world but it meant that we couldn't put the shaft in that weekend. The lid dropped beautifully over Dad's new studs and I fitted the repaired cover for the first time. At least that will keep the dust out. Something I had been pondering over was the magneto drive coupling. The output on the timing case is simply two dogs like part of an oldham coupling but the only way to adjust its position is to remove the timing cover and increment the gear by a tooth at a time or in steps of 10°. This seems a bit coarse and also very inconvenient so I took an old vernier drive which had been previously machined and turned the back off before drilling two holes for the dogs. It actually worked quite well and I had only to dress the holes out with a file to make them fit. It went straight onto the dog on the right without altering any part of the original installation and we now have a fully adjustable vernier coupling. Next, we took a look at the selector forks. They run in a channel side by side but where they have been on the outside of the box, they are rather corroded. Now I am wondering what to do with them and would value your suggestions. I had thought of cutting the ends off, screw extensions back in and then re-machining them. I could have them built up with braze or weld and machine them back or I could machine them back and braze a piece of steel into the cavity behind. Of course, I could leave them alone altogether and just use them as they are. Does anyone have experience of metal spraying to build the surface back up? There is certainly more than one way of skinning a cat! The other interesting feature is the tubular connector which screws on the end and attaches the push rods. One of the threads is completely shot and needs replacing. 7/16" UNS again but to get the adjustment, one end of the tube is left-handed! I think they may end up BSF as that is the same pitch and I am not having taps and dies made! I have realised that we need to sort out the selectors and fit them to the box before the box goes back in the chassis so these are becoming pressing. Steve 🙂 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 I can make those vernier couplings from scratch, if that's any help in the future. Here is one I made earlier: https://photos.app.goo.gl/erDQQfRWMD61Bh339 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 24, 2023 Author Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) Fantastic photo of one of the Peerless being recovered from Washington in Sussex, some years ago - about 40 I suspect. You may recognise some faces. Edited February 24, 2023 by Great War truck 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 18 minutes ago, Great War truck said: Fantastic photo of one of the Peerless being recovered from Washington in Sussex, some years ago - about 40 I suspect. You may recognise some faces. I think that is Tim to the left, is that Nick Baldwin with the beard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted February 25, 2023 Author Share Posted February 25, 2023 Not me. Looks just like Nick Baldwin but dont think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minesweeper Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 Those first four - left to right - Mike S., Barry W.,Steve B and Mick G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8RPI Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 (edited) That pinion worries me a bit. I suggest you at least use a fine stone on a dremel or die grinder to smooth off the fracture surfaces. The aim is to remove any existing cracks, nicks sharp corners etc that can act as stress concentrations and cause further cracking and failure. Ideally replace the fracture surface with a smooth curve perpendicular to the long axis of the tooth. It would be a good idea to do a dye penetrant crack test on it too. Kits marketed for weld testing can be had for under £30. Random ebay example www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371040603133? 3/8" UNS (32tpi) is very common in electronics. Used on BNC socket and potentiometer (volume control) attachments. Robert. Edited February 25, 2023 by G8RPI 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8RPI Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 I had a look at the Pinion in photoshop and it does look like there are still cracks in the teeth. Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 We had similar problems with the bevel pinion in our Moline model D tractor. B&C reconditioning (Salisbury) did a good job at a reasonable price (though admittedly that was many years ago). They also repaired the worm from my Fowler motor plough. One of the ball bearings had collapsed and the worm decided to eat the balls. Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted February 25, 2023 Share Posted February 25, 2023 The pinion damage could be due to the bearing failure (if bad enough) I would test the contact with the new bearings and then make the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Thanks for your thoughts, Robert. You are right in that some hairline cracks are visible. I did try using a hammer and pin punch on the tooth edges to see if they would break off but they are quite firm still. Going in with a Dremel to tidy them up would be a good move though. I don't think these bearings caused the failure, Andy as they are all quite good. The two on the input shaft had lost their cages but were unworn. Even the failed self aligner was only rattly. All a bit of a puzzle but I am loathe to replace the pinion because of it. It won't ever have to work hard again so I think we should get away with a bit of remdial work. Steve 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 On 2/25/2023 at 7:35 AM, Minesweeper said: Those first four - left to right - Mike S., Barry W.,Steve B and Mick G. No 5 looks like Barry Weatherhead as I remember him from 40 years ago?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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