WW1 Peerless lorry restoration

[Old Bill]

Did a little more this weekend. The correct 3/8" key steel has finally turned up so I set to and made a pair of keys for the other sprocket.

They stood a bit proud but a file soon sorted that.

Then of course another tag washer! I hadn't spotted that we would need one so out with the hacksaw and files again. Fortunately only one required.

Then the fun bit of trying to tighten the nut. I stuck in the vice as hard as I could and then Dad hung onto one end with a 3/4" drive socket, tommy bar and a piece of scaffolding tube whilst I leaned on the other with our second biggest spanner. Hopefully, it is tight enough but time will tell.

Then insert into carrier checking that the gland nuts are in place and slide over the bearing. Secure with screws previously made by Dad.

Dad is painting it at the moment after which I will wire the screws.

On to the next job!

Steve  🙂

 

 

[andypugh]

Dennis did that "Two keyways at 90 degrees" thing too. It's deeply misguided 🙂

The issue is that the two keyways define an axis, and the taper defines another axis, and they are not likely to be exactly the same. So the two elements "fight" each other. Or less anthropomorphically,  such an arrangement is kinematically redundant. 

With the N-type we have taken to using only one key. Partly as 100 years of kinematic redundancy and subsequent repairs has resulted in a rather inexact keyway positioning. 

 

[Rangie]

Kinematic Redundancy is the phrase of the week! 😁

Alec.

[john1950]

Gosh this is technical, Kinematic Redundancy. When I have learnt how to say it properly I will then have to work it into a conversation. This thread is the tops.

[David Herbert]

I bet most people would think you were talking about empty cinemas.

David

[Old Bill]

As usual, we are doing several things side by side and one of them is the seat box. This is of steel construction with the fuel tank hung inside on straps. Our predecessor with the lorry had replaced the front panel but, as you can see, he made it a bit short so it was packed at one end with a strip of wood.

On the left, you can see an original tank bracket which has had the rivet replaced with a long bolt. The bracket is a piece of bent steel. However, on the right you can see the replacement which is a piece of black angle welded in.

This is the original front plate which has had it but which makes a good pattern. In the left hand end, you can see the tensioner casting which is riveted to the strap. This one has proven salvageable.

Dad started on the new box by getting the steel bent. He then drilled and profiled all of the bits.

It was a tedious job and he was glad to see the back of it!

He turned up the new pins.

An original strap had survived in the heap to make a pattern.

Unfortunately, the tensioner casting had been dismantled with a cutting disc which had damaged it beyond repair.

I started off by fabricating  a replacement. I welded this one. You can tell that I did it by the amount of filler used to get a decent shape!

Dad fabricated the tensioning bolts. Fortunately, only two of these are needed.

Then we had to bend the eyes in the ends of the straps. I keep a big lump of steel especially for making up jigs like this.

The G-clamp was used to provide an end stop for the strip which we pulled around hot.

I was very pleased at how consistent we managed to make them. They need to be the same length otherwise the tank would sit with one end down.

Dad drilled and riveted them up.

Two have eyes in only one end so that the clamping casting can be fitted. We left them off at this stage so that we could get the length right.

Then I had to bend them to 7 1/2" radius for which I used the press. This was a bit painstaking and took a while to get them consistent but they were OK in the end.

Seat box itself next.

Steve  🙂

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Old Bill

[Asciidv]

Steve, is this a new press that you have bought?

[Old Bill]

Hi Barry.

No, I have had it for a few years. It was an opportunistic purchase from another old lorry man and sits next to the Bridgeport in Leicester. My original 10 tonne press now lives on the floor in Devon. I find it a lot easier to work standing up than kneeling on the floor these days! It has proved to be a very good tool and much better than hitting things!

Steve

[Old Bill]

Progress continues. Dad has primed the seat box panels.

We have drilled and bolted them together.

I have since rivetted on the angles and Dad is continuing the painting.

Whilst doing this, we noticed that there are two angle brackets rivetted to the ends of the box so I ground off the heads, punched them out and levered them off. Dad has cleaned and painted them so they will be ready for drilling and fitting next time.

Well, we have been working hard on the new box and brackets but what about a fuel tank? When I completed the Dennis tank, I was feeling really proud of myself so I went to show my pal Barry. His response:

'Why didn't you ask? I have a spare one over there!' I took a look and rather than a Dennis, I saw an original Peerless tank in first rate order! Barry felt that I could give it a good home and so it has been awaiting the moment.

It really is a lovely tank with the original makers plate on it still.

And the tap!

We took the tap off so that is awaiting cleaning up.

Dad has set to and started cleaning up the tank for painting.

I understand that it is now green so what a lovely thing to have. Thank you Barry!

On the end of the seat box is the petrol tap lever, conveniently positioned.

Unfortunately, it is broken and incomplete but one of our forum friends very kindly made a 3d print of it for me to use as a pattern.

Another pal, braver than I , does aluminium casting in his back garden and he very kindly offered to pour it for us.

He did say that getting it out of the sand was a bit tricky!

They just need a cleaning up and drilling and they can go on too. We are making progress!

We feel that things are really beginning to move now but we couldn't do this without our friends. Many thanks Chaps!

Steve   🙂

[andypugh]

2 hours ago, Old Bill said:

He did say that getting it out of the sand was a bit tricky!🙂

3D printed patterns typically need a fair bit of filling and painting to be usable. I am surprised it came out at all. 

[Asciidv]

100% agree with Andy. The surface finish of a printed pattern which has not been re-worked has a particularly aggressive hold to the sand. All the conventional rules of a smooth surface and draft angle still apply.

[Old Bill]

I did give it four coats of a pattern paint which did a lot for the surface finish.

Steve

[Old Bill]

I have been pushing on with bits for the fuel tank and seat box installation. First job was to take a look at the petrol tap.

I filed the ends off of the split pin and removed the washer and spring. It was pretty mucky!

More gunge!

A tap with the mallet and it came apart quite easily.

A gentle wire brushing all over along with a bit of emery and it all looks OK.

I lapped the plug in with a bit of metal polish and then treated it witha smear of graphited grease before reassembling it. It works very smoothly and has a most satisfying feel.

The banjo was missing so a turning and silver soldering exercise soon remedied that.

Then onto the quadrant casting. I clamped it down and skimmed off the runner and riser before marking it out and drilling it for rivets.

Of course, the tap needs a handle so another fabrication was in order.

A polish up and rounding of the edges and it is ready to fit.

All of the tap parts lined up. The bit of bar is a random length from the drawer as I will have to set that on assembly.

Dad has been painting the components of the seat box so we can have a nice assembly job the next time we are together. Gear and brake levers next!

Steve  🙂

 

[Old Bill]

Here is a puzzle for you. It has certainly been puzzling me and I have yet to determine the answer!

I have been looking at the gear selector mechanism. At the front end are three forks with detents for each gear and neautral. As the lorry is chain drive with the gearbox at the back, the selector rods are three feet long. When we salvaged these parts, we were in a hurry to get away so we simply cut the rods, or tubes as they turned out to be with the view to repair them later on.

That moment is getting closer but I cannot see how they were attached originally. There is no sign of braze or weld although the corrosion could hide a welded joint.

Interestingly, each selector has a hole in the side and, when shaken, rattles so there is something loose inside.

There is a discontinuity about an inch away from the selector and when I put a screwdirver down the tube, it bottoms out here.

I can't see how the joint is made but, fortunately, we have another set of selectors although they are a bit rough. They have corroded through on the joints but this hasn't made it any easier to understand!

In the bottom and the top rods you can just make out a lead button which is free and rattles. In the centre one, you can again see signs of a joint about an inch up.

Looking at the centre one, it shows signs of a drilled hole but really quite a large one. Certainly larger than the bore of the tube.

Now, I can make a repair by drilling the centre and brazing a peg into both the selector and the tube so I have a solution. However it really irks me that I don't understand what they did and why! Any thoughts would be gratefully received!

Steve   ⁉️

[radiomike7]

Is it part of a device that prevents you moving two selectors at the same time?

[rog8811]

I find it interesting that the orientation of the small hole is different between the three so my first thought of drain hole is out, but I can see why you are struggling to understand it.

[dgrev]

So lets assume the holes were drilled at random, which considering that someone would normally set

the job up in a drill press with the flat side down, really doesn't make any sense.

[Doc]

Steve,

I wonder if they were orbitally welded, with the small hole being drilled to relieve pressure.

By "eye of faith" there is a ring discernable on all three parts in the 2nd photograph; this may indicate the position of the weld, or the heat affected zone. Expect corrosion rate to be different to that of the bulk material.

Large drilling might be to match the wall thickness of the selector end to that of the tube.

I would probably make them like this today; I'm not sure if Peerless would be in a position to do this 100 years ago.

Doc.

[Gordon_M]

A simpler answer may be that the holes were to hook in spring ends, to keep the rods in tension and avoid rattle, or something along those lines.

[andypugh]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I would probably make them like this today; I'm not sure if Peerless would be in a position to do this 100 years ago.

Doc.

Wikipedia:

Some applications and patents connected with friction welding date back to the turn of the 20th century,^[3] and rotary friction welding is the oldest of these methods.^[4] W. Richter patented the method of linear friction welding (LFW) process in 1924^[5] in England and 1929^[5] in the Weimar Republic, however, the description of the process was vague^[4] and H. Klopstock patented the same process in the Soviet Union in 1924.^[5]The first description and experiments related to rotary friction welding took place in the Soviet Union in 1956,^[3][5] 

[Old Bill]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:11 PM, radiomike7 said:

Is it part of a device that prevents you moving two selectors at the same time?

There is a mechanism which locks the unused selectors by preventing the pawl from lifting out of the detent in any two of them. I have made a load of bits for it and will post them up soon. I have been hanging on until I have a bit of a story to tell.

Steve

[Old Bill]

On 5/29/2023 at 9:17 PM, Doc said:

I wonder if they were orbitally welded, with the small hole being drilled to relieve pressure.

By "eye of faith" there is a ring discernable on all three parts in the 2nd photograph; this may indicate the position of the weld, or the heat affected zone. Expect corrosion rate to be different to that of the bulk material.

Large drilling might be to match the wall thickness of the selector end to that of the tube.

Your thoughts are matching mine although I am not sure what you mean by 'orbitally welded'. The drilled hole would match the wall thicknesses nicely but there is something down the hole in line with the joint so my screwdriver isn't reaching the bottom. And why a lead plug? I can believe that the holes are pressure releasing but what was the process used that needed them?

It is a most interesting puzzle!

Steve  🤔

[Old Bill]

On 5/29/2023 at 9:39 PM, Gordon_M said:

A simpler answer may be that the holes were to hook in spring ends, to keep the rods in tension and avoid rattle, or something along those lines.

That's a thought. I suspect that the plungers, sprung-loaded into the detents, should hold the selectors firmly enough but it is one to keep in mind.

Steve

[Doc]

24 minutes ago, Old Bill said:

Your thoughts are matching mine although I am not sure what you mean by 'orbitally welded'. 

Steve  🤔

Steve,

Please see page 11 of the Karrier WDS blog for details of orbital welding. Basically, the two work pieces are held in alignment in a jig while the welding electrode orbits the joint. I imagine this would have been done by hand in the Peerless factory.

Regards, Doc.

[Johnny]

I'm struggling to work it out due to the level of corrosion.
If I had to remake them, I'd extend the fork casting to provide a close fitting peg to slide the tube over and either secure them with a roll pin or bolt, or solder them on.

Is it possible the originals were the same and the lead disc is actually the remains of solder?

In this picture the top one looks to have a longer peg inside the tube than the other two.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Johnny