Originality

[Adrian Barrell]

Vehicles are toys and should be played with! All my Dinky toys had chipped paint, and didn't look as they came out of the box for more than 5 minutes.

 

My dinky toys may not then have remained "original" but I enjoyed them, nevertheless.

 

Exactly!

[cpltomo]

Just my thought.

When a vechicle is in service with a unit they mod it to suit there needs. My old unit had a turretless ferret that the oc used, now that is not as it came out the factory. We modded our foxes to suit us with extra bins normal off cheftain plus a extrnal gpmg mount. even some of the spartans had a microwave in them. Plus the reme 4 tonner that had a bar built in. So when they leave the army and go for aution all these bits are removed. So when someones buys them and dos them up back to fctory spec thats not as they were. If i bought a sabre or fox it would be refitted back to the spec it was when it was in my troop. Now some of you may say thays not original but thast how it spent its life. Like how meny of you have sen a fox with a copila mount gpmp. Its not orignal but.

[fv1609]

Graeme, you're right its not original in the pure dictionary definition meaning going back to the origins, how first conceived etc. But it certainly is authentic & I think most of us feel comfortable with legitimate mods that have some provenance rather than something to the owner's fancy/fantasy.

 

I'm sure you can have a great deal of fun, displaying the vehicle with such unexpected embellishments & then reveal to your critics or advisers the legitimacy of you restoration!

 

There have been several occasions where I have presented vehicles that appear to most people to be "wrong" but I have clear evidence that I was right. It is great sport seeing who people in there various ways from being almost aggressively critical to the kinder "I'm a bit puzzled by.."

 

The first was my Shorland it was that painted a strange RUC green. When it was later issued to the UDR everything (including springs!) was painted high gloss deep bronze green with disruptive matt black. It rubbed it down carefully photoing & measuring the distribution of the black bits.

 

I repainted it in this scheme, reproducing the paint pattern to with an inch of where it had been previously. But show after show I got so fed up that I could scream like Alf Garnet "It ain't bl**dy wrong". That was all I got so I gave up, the fun had gone out of it.

 

Again this happened with my RUC pig for about a year in 1962 they were painted Light Admiralty Grey. I got the usual "Still in the primer then?" ribbing which is ok, but it just got dismissed in people's minds as a fantasy & not to be taken seriously. What really hurt was people familiar with RUC vehicles saying it was far too light, but what was fixed in their minds was the dark slate grey used on later RUC vehicles. Yet I could find traces of LAG on it. But I gave in & painted it Olive Drab as they were later painted.

 

Now with the present Shorland restoration I am determined not to give in! A very authorative book says they were painted Olive Drab, I have the original record card that says Olive Drab, I have seen a few colour pictures of similar vehicles which could well be Olive Drab. But mine has not a trace of Olive Drab whatsoever.

 

Before the UDR painted it DBG the only other colour underneath was a shamrock/emerald green & nothing else. Given that this was stationed in Belfast itself I suspect that the colour was more of a political statement & as such would stand out as a very obvious green thing in a grey urban environment.

 

I removed the wing with a large area of this green revealed & had it professionally matched & mixed. This cost me £103 pounds for 5 litres & when it dried it just did not match well enough. The criticism was made that this sample paint could have changed due to UV fading anyway.

 

Well I removed a large piece of metal from the inside the vehicle where the sun doesn't shine & the UDR missed with their paintbrush. I have spent a long time matching it to this sample. I now believe the vehicle is painted correctly for the period. Whether the other 9 in that batch were painted that way I can't say as they were cut up in 1974.

 

But mine is correct. I'm not changing it for anyone, no matter who they, who they served with & how they remember it. I'm not going to fake history for the sake of peace & quiet!

Edited August 24, 2009 by fv1609

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm new here and not presently the owner of a HMV, but I do play with Land Rovers and the anoraks there are the same. I had a guy come up to me at a show and ask how big my tyres were. When I told him, he pulled a tape measure out and proudly reported back that I was 1/2" off :nut: - frankly, he's welcome to his tape measure and thermos.

 

The fact is, the day anything leaves the factory is probably the last day it's original. From fluffy dice to make-do repairs, a lot of what makes a vehicle interesting or historic is the stuff that's done to it over the years. Dents, scratches, bullet holes, layers of paint, transplanted and modified bits - everything tells a story, and wiping it all out to put it back to factory seems a disservice to the history of the thing.

 

A friend of a friend pulled a good one - the prototype Range Rovers (very rare & valuable if you like that sort of thing) all had a certain series of registration numbers (YVB 15xH), he had a hacked about Range Rover hybrid so phoned the DVLA and bought as a cherished plate the next number in the series (which was never used) and nailed it on. Anoraks were almost in tears when he took it to shows thinking he'd chopped up a long-lost prototype :rofl:

[croc]

My explorer has lots of original rust and rotten wood, the original windscreen frame was rotten and had broken original glass in it. I am gradually replacing bits with new materials, stuff "original" it's to draughty.

Whatever you have got, whatever condition it is in, it is being displayed as it is now. In the case of my explorer that means a 58 year old truck that was used by the army, then as a civvy recovery unit, then left in a field. It is what it is (rather than what it was) and the more people tell me it should be painted green, the less likely it gets that it will be.

[nptimber]

Just my thought.

When a vechicle is in service with a unit they mod it to suit there needs. My old unit had a turretless ferret that the oc used, now that is not as it came out the factory. We modded our foxes to suit us with extra bins normal off cheftain plus a extrnal gpmg mount. even some of the spartans had a microwave in them. Plus the reme 4 tonner that had a bar built in. So when they leave the army and go for aution all these bits are removed. So when someones buys them and dos them up back to fctory spec thats not as they were. If i bought a sabre or fox it would be refitted back to the spec it was when it was in my troop. Now some of you may say thays not original but thast how it spent its life. Like how meny of you have sen a fox with a copila mount gpmp. Its not orignal but.

Anyone know where i can find the ex R.E.M.E 4 tonner with the built in bar sounds like my kind of vehicle :yay:

[LarryH57]

My mate who works as a civi fitter for the Army says that several of his TA Signals unit's Bedford 4 tonners had been converted in to mobile homes with bunk beds and other facilities in them as to quote the men in that unit - 'we don't like camping out in 9x9s any more!'

 

Much to their annoyance the fittings had to be stripped out when the vehicles went in for a major service at another location. But no doubt someone will try to recreate this type of vehicle in a few years time using a Bedford with a soft top GS body!

[sabre]

Please God, help us:sweat:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/jeep-wilys-ford-mahindra-sas-jeep-1941-43_W0QQitemZ330355383777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item4ceab71de1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[honeileen]

I saw the jeep on Ebay 2 days ago didnt have time to post it here. But the interesting thing is you get the jeep but:confused:...........

:stop:no number plate and no props/ items on the jeep!!! which makes it an expensive 4x4:argh: so should not even be advertised as a mock sas jeep as there is no props on it.

 

There was a mock SAS 109 on there this week which did look quite good but at £10,000 was alot expensive i think:cool2:

 

Christian

[Adam Elsdon]

Oh dear!

[paul connor]

I'm currently building an Abbott SPG on a Ford Mondeo Estate 2.0. Watch this space

[recymech66]

During my time in the Army I've seen many types of vehicle modified to suit the crew, especially REME fitter trucks, CQMS, SQMS etc, whether it's a Bedford, Leyland Daf, RB44 or whatever the unit trucks are. Illegal mods can take many forms from fitting cigarette lighter plugs for charging mobile phones, fitting beds, cooking areas, 24v to 240v inverters for powering TV's, Kettles,Playstations, Laptops, charging PSP's etc etc. During tours of Bosnia, Kosovo etc our metalsmith would build cages to house TV and DVD players which would be semi permenantly fitted to our Bedfords.

 

A vehicles were a little harder to modifiy than B vehicles and they were usually limited to inverters to power mobile phone chargers camping fridges etc.

 

You will never see 2 vehicles ever the same, every crew will mod their vehicle to suit, ingenius idea's to increase stowage is always an obvious mod and obtaining stowage racks and bins off A vehicles and then bolting or welding them to your vehicle will always give it that individual look.

 

BV's off A vehicles are always a good one especially for the OC's landrover and never fails to upset the REME vehicle mechanic inpsector when it come round for it's annual inspection. In fact all illegal mods have to be removed for the 12 monthly/6 monthly inspections. (unless your best mates with the inspector).

 

No 2 MV's look the same when prepared for exercise but when back in camp and everything has been stripped off then they will look the same-ish.

 

MV owners with no Military experience will try their hardest to replicate what they think is right and good luck to them, the anoraks with tape measures need to get a life, no one will ever get it perfectly right because what could be correct for one vehicle will be different to another. We should be thankful that there are people out there that give enough of a stuff to at least try and if that keeps them happy then thats ok.

 

I know when I finally get my own MV I wont give a stuff what people say about mine as it will replicate what I saw and did while still serving.

 

Great debate though.

 

Edited to add that some of the more ridiculous items that people add which clearly shouldn't be there are rather annoying.

Edited August 29, 2009 by recymech66
bad shpeeeling

[ferretfixer]

Please God, help us:sweat:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/jeep-wilys-ford-mahindra-sas-jeep-1941-43_W0QQitemZ330355383777QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item4ceab71de1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

You can tell it's not original, it's Right Hand Drive!!...............:rofl:

 

But seriously, that's A lot of Money for this vehicle WITHOUT all the Weapons & Accessories! Why did they list it with all the gear if it isnt included in the sale? :??? Probably, because they thought a possible over excited potential buyer might just see the photo & Not read the listing discription!

You would be amazed at how many people do. I sell a fair bit on Evilbay & the amount of moronic questions that get asked, when the answer is VERY CLEARLY in the discription!

Mike

It never ceases to amaze me how many morons are out there! :confused:

[Tony B]

How Happy is the Moron,

He dosen't give a damn!

I wish I was a moron!

 

Ah, perhaps I am! :n00b:

[robin craig]

Okay, it is time for me and my alter ego Mr Angry to get some things off our chests.

 

Those here in Canada have already heard the rant so the rest of you might as well hear it.

 

My credo for MVs is all based around the presumption that we are all temporary custodians of the kit we own operate or look after. So, that being said, we try to use and care for our vehicles in the collection by following the basic credo of "no new holes and nothing welded on". By satisfying that we modify or alter the vehicles as required, say for example to fit civvy licence plates, in such a way that anything can be reversed to the vehicles original condition.

 

Now Mr Angry will chime in. Why do people take all that time and effort and money to restore and rebuild their vehicles and display them and ont do anything to remove the civvy plates when on display? That one really gets me.

 

Finally, me again, the vehicles you own are yours and that means you are free to anything you like to them so dont take this personally and start a flame war, just accept that some of us can be rivett counting persnickety people at times

 

ahhhh that feels better

 

Robin

[Adrian Barrell]

Now Mr Angry will chime in. Why do people take all that time and effort and money to restore and rebuild their vehicles and display them and ont do anything to remove the civvy plates when on display? That one really gets me.

 

A fair question.

 

Finally, me again, the vehicles you own are yours and that means you are free to anything you like to them so dont take this personally and start a flame war, just accept that some of us can be rivett counting persnickety people at times

 

 

Robin

 

 

You had the answer all along!

[Enigma]

In the Netherlands we can use dark blue/white numberplates on oldtimer cars.

These don't look modern.

[sabre]

Now Mr Angry will chime in. Why do people take all that time and effort and money to restore and rebuild their vehicles and display them and ont do anything to remove the civvy plates when on display? That one really gets me.

 

 

 

+1

 

Piet

[antarmike]

Now Mr Angry will chime in. Why do people take all that time and effort and money to restore and rebuild their vehicles and display them and ont do anything to remove the civvy plates when on display? That one really gets me.

Robin

 

Could it be that most places where these vehicles are on display is designated as open to the public, therefore "road traffic act" applies, and to remain lawful the civvy plates have to remain on the vehicle?

 

Can you drive a vehicle without civvy number plates on show to enter and leave the arena at an event, and keep valid insurance? If you were to knock someone over and hurt them they need to be able to see your registration to claim against you.

[alan turner (RIP)]

I took a mate of mine up to Duxford for a look around some years back and we had a great time watching the guys repairing their Hurricane until he asked how much of it is original, well its one of those that the chap couldnt really answer. but I said to my mate really the only time an aeroplane or vehicle is original is when it rolls off the producion line under its own power, everything on it is new.

 

Now this mate had a much loved Ford Capri 1600 Lazer and he spent large amounts of money on it to keep it pristine. So I asked him what was original on his car , he admitted that it had had new wings, gearbox, clutch wheels, brake, tyres, battery, all fluids changed loads of petrol lights etc, so he was a bit disgruntled when I asked him if he still thought his was original. he replied that it was.

 

Just like triggers broom 10 new handles and six new heads.

 

Anything else that happens to it becomes part of its history rightly or wrongly.

 

Another mate used to complain that in war films they didnt use the correct opposing piece whether tank, plane or vehicle and he would moan no end having not enjoyed the film. he couldnt understand artistic license of if you cant get the proper piece use whatever you can get hold of to represent it.

[fesm_ndt]

I thought I'd chuck my 2 cents in as to me, it's an interesting topic, with passionate opposing sides.

 

When I bought my Pinz it had this fancy camo paint job but under the law here it has to be removed "something about a load of ex army trucks emptying a armoury out".

 

I also lean towards the, trying not to alter a car too much, so perhaps in years to come it could be converted back to originality.

 

If a car is being shown at a historic show it should be original (ish)

 

But I think an owners vehicle is his and they can do what they want because:

 

- it's his/her money

- a least it's a vehicle saved, to some extent instead of being scrapped (gone forever). I hear there is a bright pink armoured vehicle driving around in the UK. Once that owners group gets weary of it I am sure it will be rebuilt or parted out.

[mark m uk]

Some great views here expressed on the subject of originality. Most opinions are either leaning towards one side or the other.

 

Personally, I believe it depends on a number of factors,

What you have, how rare is it, what money you have, are just a few that spring to mind and are all part of the mix that has to be considered.

 

This will upset some purists,

 

I have a '43 GPW. I bought it over 30 years ago in a very sorry state.

It was my first car, and aged about 18, was my daily driver for many years. If ever there were an example of 'triggers broom' - there it is.

 

Since I bought it, it has had 2 different engines, 1 rear axle, 3 gearboxes, 2 transfers, 2 sets of rear springs, 1 set on the front, a replacement ww2 body and now a philipino one (I can hear the tea being spat out) repro seats, repro bonnet hotchkiss windshield - I couldn't give a tuppeny fart.

 

Why ? .....because the world is nearly poisoned with jeeps, there will always be a nice one for someone to look at on showgrounds. Mine is for fun. My amusement, not for anyone else's benifit.

 

I have come in for a lot of stick in the past from very critical MB and GPW owners that are all to quick to sneer and pass judgement. look down their noses at me because of the blatant use of post war spares - and still the cheek to paint a white star on the bonnet.

 

I also have a GPA, and you would be very hard pressed to find a better, more complete and original example.

 

So, I have a foot in both camps

[Stone]

I think I go with this one:

But I think an owners vehicle is his and they can do what they want because:

 

- it's his/her money

- a least it's a vehicle saved, to some extent instead of being scrapped (gone forever). I hear there is a bright pink armoured vehicle driving around in the UK. Once that owners group gets weary of it I am sure it will be rebuilt or parted out.

There's at least two, a pink Abbott and there's one or two pink T55s :rofl:

 

I can appreciate all the hard work that goes into putting together the carefully-reconstructed, well-researched art pieces that end up at shows (not so much the 'bought from Withams, jetwash, display' brigade, but hey) but equally if someone wants to paint their ZIL orange then why not? Maybe it's the engineer in me but I'd rather see a neatly-applied fresh paintjob than keep a festering rusty patchwork 'because it's original'. Likewise why not have a Russian tank representing one of the Finnish Defence Force examples because you prefer the camo scheme? It may not be as it spent the first part of its life but that doesn't mean its history is lost, it just gives you something to talk about at shows

 

Flame shield up!

 

Stone

[fesm_ndt]

 

Flame shield up!

 

Stone

 

:rofl::rofl::rofl: actually I don't think it's that argumentative in this forum given the size of the posting comunity. There is always going to be different opinions on anything and hopefully this causes debate (hopefully not completely vitriolic).

 

I commented on this thread as its an interesting topic and the topic can veer both ways.

 

Mind you a pink tank :argh:

 

I heard there was also an armoured vehicle that got stretched, pimped with a hot tub in the back.

[Enigma]

Originality.

If you have a WW2 Jeep where parts have changed using WW2 parts then it still is original in my eyes. Original WW2 that is, not original as when it left the factory.

 

With a new (Filipino) body it isn't original anymore in my eyes.