Marmite!! Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 I spoke today with another MV enthusiast, who plans to travel to Holland next month. Like many he got bored with leaving messages on the Spire answerphone, and managed to get a number for a direct line to an official. He was told that the licenses had always been in operation, and that without one your vehicle would be impounded? One wonders who has been living in the real world for the last 70 years with the scheme operating? Clearly just another official issuing licenses for those who really need them while everyone else just drove military vehicles in and out of the country without anyone else taking the slightest notice. An almost pointless job for 70 years! I have no idea what the position is now in the ports, but I did check my printout of the license which does clearly state that to be valid it requires an official stamp, which funnily they haven't sent me!! Jules Print out a copy of the internet header & message source as proof the email is not a forgery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I actually assume (possibly in error?), that someone responsible for such matters in the port, will have access to the license online, otherwise what's the point of having a computerised system? Printing the header would no more prove it valid than the printed license itself? Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 I actually assume (possibly in error?), that someone responsible for such matters in the port, will have access to the license online, otherwise what's the point of having a computerised system? Printing the header would no more prove it valid than the printed license itself? Jules It proves that the email originated from them... if checked it would lead back to them... very hard to forge the header... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul connor Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I went in and out of france in the 109 FFR with ariels and Clansman all over and a sankey.. have done 4 times... not a question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I think the risk is not that they won't let you out (the ports are too busy) but that they'll photograph your reg. number and fine you six months later after you've got back. I bought an ex-Recklinghausen LHD Series 3 in the UK about fifteen years ago and later sold it in Belgium. Should I be expecting a knock on the door ? I think that they have always known the legislation was unenforceable but with the advent of on-line registration they can make it compulsory with no extra work. It's ironic because the most used military vehicle in the world today is surely a white Toyota pick-up with ten kalashnikov-armed nutters in the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 On the way back from Beltring to Holland nobody asked anything in the harbour , even there were 2 WW2 armoured vehicles on the low loader . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 It proves that the email originated from them... if checked it would lead back to them... very hard to forge the header... I disagree. You can trivially forge the To: and From: fields, and looking here will give you some ideas as to how you can hide the origination point with an open mail relay. If you didn't want to just forge the originating address / mailserver (the relay doesn't know that you are who you say you are as it's unauthenticated) there's nothing stopping you from looking up a bunch of likely relay points and their IP addresses, doing a bit of copy+paste and printing it out. It might make it look more plausible to your customs chap if you have a bit of paper with your email headers on, but the only way he can really verify it is to ring them up and check. Not that likely that they would stop you at all, I guess, but hey :??? Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 I disagree. You can trivially forge the To: and From: fields, and looking here will give you some ideas as to how you can hide the origination point with an open mail relay. If you didn't want to just forge the originating address / mailserver (the relay doesn't know that you are who you say you are as it's unauthenticated) there's nothing stopping you from looking up a bunch of likely relay points and their IP addresses, doing a bit of copy+paste and printing it out. It might make it look more plausible to your customs chap if you have a bit of paper with your email headers on, but the only way he can really verify it is to ring them up and check. Not that likely that they would stop you at all, I guess, but hey :??? Stone Your missing the point... printing out the headers will give you back up if they want to check that it's a genuine email... I wasn't saying just wave it under their noses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnguppy Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Why dont we all prove a point and submit a request for a licence and all give them 4 weeks notice that we all want to travel aboad then when they fail we can all moan when we say we could not go where is it going to end Last year i was asked to attened the 100 yr anervesary of the FANYS at buckingham palace Stupid Ken livingstone wanted me to PAY £8 to drive into london , i called and said i did not want to pay nore would i pay they informed me they would catch me I drove all the way from Hastings into london with my number plates removed only displaying its war time number HM was delighted to see a vehicle like the one she drove during the war On leaving Buck house driving up the MAll with a POLICE ESCORT and returning back to hastings guess what never got a bill and never paid Its been 4 weeks since i aplied on line for my export free licence its been allocated a case worker but no movement so far i rest my case An idea does anyone know who will stop you at the docks all the ferry company would do is to check your ticket and i guess check your Civi reg number ? if they checked my scopion it says a bulldozer in the log bog ??? well thats the DVLA all sounds brown stuff to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Has here been any clarification over items that may have been used by the Armed Forces that were or still are available to civilian buyers? For example if you bought some night vision equipment from Withams that just so happened to have been used by the Army would it need an export licence if the very same kit had been available directly to the civi market through retail outlets? Is it the fact that the equipment has been used by the Armed Forces that is important to the Government or the equipment itself and its potential for use in conflict? Perhaps they have not thought this through? If its the later, do people with no interest in MVs etc need to get export licences for kit that could be used in war such as night vision kit used by conservationists who just want to use it to spot animals at night? Also regarding section 6 of this scheme I am still not clear whether my 1970-80's collection of 9x9 tent, Clansman, jerry cans, pots and pans, tool boxes, webbing, combat clothing and boots etc are in need of an export licence or indeed whether each bit of kit needs a licence or just the vehicle they are carried in? Confused or what!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Has here been any clarification over items that may have been used by the Armed Forces that were or still are available to civilian buyers? Also regarding section 6 of this scheme I am still not clear whether my 1970-80's collection of 9x9 tent, Clansman, jerry cans, pots and pans, tool boxes, webbing, combat clothing and boots etc are in need of an export licence or indeed whether each bit of kit needs a licence or just the vehicle they are carried in? Confused or what!!!! Well it has crossed my mind that I should probably apply for SIEL's for the office body on the back of the Militant, the 3 jerry cans, 3 ex-army chairs, the 18 x 24 tent, the tool boxes, the 100 plus tools in each box, the weather balloons (don't ask!), penthouse lights, bergan, current issued bergan, sleeping system, snatch blocks, tow ropes, various nos spare parts, charging generator, flags, cam poles, cam nets, steps (broken), lifting chains, shackles, straight bar, etc. Maybe if everyone were to apply for a licence for every individual thing ex-military they travelled abroad with, it would show how ridiculous the scheme is? Maybe it would just provide extra pointless jobs for the officials at our expense? These days the important/valuable/sensitive military items or technically important "stuff", is far more likely to leave the country via the internet, or on a DVD, or a USB stick, than driving the finished article out through the docks! Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Just be carful what boots you wear! Three weeks round europe barefoot can be painful! Perhaps a campain of stupid requests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpu121265 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 As far as i can work out, this legislation has been in place since before WW2, and is the UK version of the French legislation which has been causing problems in France, loosely, controlling (or monitoring) the transit or sale of military related items across a country border. Until recently it has not been enforced in the UK (likewise in France until a couple of years ago). I sent an e-mail to the address on the web site, asking for clarification of the rules; did i need to apply individually for each of my vehicles, for each trip etc and got an out of office reply. As I was summoning up the mental strength to start the registration process 'solo' the following day, i got an e-mail back, telling me how to apply, and providing step by step instructions. It appears that for vehicles older than 50 years, the std OGEL is the licence to apply for, under the category for historic military vehicles. Having only had to complete the OGEL in relation to 50+ year old vehicles, i can only say that it was a quick and painless process. You need to register with the site first to get a user name (which is your e-mail address) and a password which they send you. The rest of it is just a form basically asking for your name and address (with a text field for any extra info which i used to explain that this is a private collection some or all of which, may or may not be taken to Europe at some point). I have had my application confirmed and await the licence - whatever that actually turns out to be. I intend to carry a copy with the application number with any other paperwork i have for each vehicle if i ever take them abroad, and as i understand it, now that the application has been accepted, i just need to keep a record of any trips made, (out date, return date, destination and vehicle details) should those records ever need to be interogated. Now the flaw in the plan is that it sounds as if it is more compliacted for vehicles less than 50 years old, and of course if you are not internet enabled then you can't apply on line (which i understand is the only way). If anyone anywhere near me (Leeds) needs access to the internet, i am more than happy to provide it, if it would help - but then without internet access i suppose you would not be reading this..... Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Having read through the ML sections 1 - 22 etc I have been able to identify a few items in my 'less than 50 years old collection' that would need an export licence: NBC suit, S6 Gas Mask, Gloves & Overboots etc - ML 7 NBC Decontamination kit & test papers - ML 7 Clansman radio & associated parts - ML 11 Pick, Shovel & Spade - ML 17 b. & d. Jerry Can - ML 17 l. Black plastic water container - ML 17 l. Modern Helmet - ML 13 Original IRR NATO green paint - ML 17 c Military Manuals (paper format and as software) - ML 17 f. and ML 21 d. However regarding my Lightweight Land Rover (supposidly covered under ML 6 and 9) I propose to challenge BIS on this - as apart from its shape a 12v GS Lwt differs very little from a 88" Series LR used by a farmer. Edited August 28, 2009 by LarryH57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lardrover Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Having read through the ML sections 1 - 22 etc I have been able to identify a few items in my 'less than 50 years old collection' that would need an export licence: Cheese Possessed? Possibly a chemical WMD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cheese Possessed? Possibly a chemical WMD. LOL :-D:-D Mark:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Cheese Possessed? Possibly a chemical WMD. More like a crime against humanity! :shake: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I submitted an inquiry for the Stalwart and all the kit it carries. Got the reply back today advising me that the only items that needed the license are the Stalwart itself - and the Trilux sight fitted to the deac SLR. Weird or what????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I suppose that this legislation is a consequence of international organisations dictating to us which bunches of third world retards we're allowed to sell arms and military equipment to. Logically, if the end-user is not known and the powers that be think that they can control this then they have to try to monitor everything. This makes for interesting reading: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=257&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=408248&SubjectId=36 I'm not going to speculate whether this 'incident' led directly to the controls we now see, but it couldn't have helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Don't know of many reenactment events for 65 year old vehicles in Sudan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 This makes for interesting reading: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/clientmicrosite/Content/Detail.aspx?ClientId=257&NewsAreaId=2&ReleaseID=408248&SubjectId=36 I'm not going to speculate whether this 'incident' led directly to the controls we now see, but it couldn't have helped. 'Can we have an export license, please?' 'No' 'Never mind we'll send them anyway' Did they honestly think nobody would notice?! :stop: Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 Noticed that the OGEL (Vintage Military Vehicles) has been revoked and replaced by OGEL (Historic Military Vehicles and Artillery Pieces) it would appear that lobbying has paid off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Link to the new OGEL guidance from the MVT http://www.mvt.org.uk/OGEL/mvap%20ogel%20guidance.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Being a virtuious person (Degsey!! Stop sniggering at the back there!) I have spent about three hours over the last couple of weeks trying to sort an OGEL out. Despite the emails I've sent to SPIRE being answered very promptly the B**dy site still won't acept the individual aapplication. Anyone else having this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Being a virtuious person (Degsey!! Stop sniggering at the back there!) I have spent about three hours over the last couple of weeks trying to sort an OGEL out. Despite the emails I've sent to SPIRE being answered very promptly the B**dy site still won't acept the individual aapplication. Anyone else having this problem? No problem at at all, did mine in May, straight through. Make sure you complete all the boxes, perhaps you have left one blank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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