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Gentlemen, Just found another Canadian Triumph 3SW photograph in my files: BUT... I'm starting to have my doubts about my own theory now... Again: this is Ron's engine: And the picture below comes from Andy Tiernan's archive: And I posted this one before (71435): I think it's clear to see that two different sets of stamps have been used here. But what do you see in Andy's picture (same set of stamps as on Ron's bike): is that a 74340 or is it a 71310...? The former would mean a Canadian census number, the latter would mean a C/5108 census number! Now if you look closely at the "4", you will see that the horizontal line is very faint (but it is there!). Is that a dodgy Canadian "4" stamp? Or is it a British "4 that has been converted in a 1" stamp...? Affirmanti incumbit probatio, but I'm afraid that I can't prove either theory! In dubio abstine...

Another interesting document from the Canadian Archives: "As regards to Q.M.G. (Quarter Master General) vehicles, the identification numbers will be allotted to the vehicle and painted on it in the V.R.D. before the vehicle is issued to the Unit concerned. In addition to having the number painted on the vehicle, each vehicle will have a seal with the vehicle number fastened to the steering column. This seal should remain fixed to the steering column permanently." Obviously motorcycles don't have a "steering column". Would stamping this number on the crankcases have been the motorcycle alternative for this "permanently fixed seal" I wonder...?

More "proof" for my "Canadian theory": as explained, the motorcycles census numbers block C74000 - 75249 were reserved for the Canadian Forces (hence new prefix CC). We've got the Norton document that shows that these numbers were split up in smaller blocks per maker, CC74000 - 74090 being the Nortons. The bike in the Canadian 3SW photograph is CC74408. Ron's bike would have been CC74307. If we consider that there were 594 Triumphs with a CC number, both numbers (74408 and 74307) could indeed come from the same Triumph block...

A picture from Clive Law's book:

Hi Ron, OK, good to see that you liked my research! 😊 I don't think (I'm quite sure actually...) that the factory ever put a C/5108 engine in a C/6128 frame. According to Messrs O&M, the 3SW was used throughout the war ("Despite production of the model 3SW ceasing during 1941, the type remained in service until the end of the Second World War, principally in training and second-line roles. Following the end of hostilities in 1945 the model was quickly disposed of, many of the survivors being rebuilt to civilian specification during the late 1940s."), so it is not unlikely that the engine was changed somewhere during the war. Is the Canadian option likely? Good question... I think it could. Please let me quote from Clive Law's book "The Canadian Military Motorcycle": "To date, the Canadian Army (Overseas) (CAO) had used mostly Nortons (affectionately termed "snortin' Nortons") and Indians. By the end of June 1941, the total number of motorcycles purchased by the Canadian Army had reached 3,354. Of these the majority were Nortons (1,754 solos and 267 combos), followed by solo Triumphs (594), solo Enfields (486), and Indians (203 solos, 50 combos). The total delivery of Enfields included 236 machines originally ordered from Triumph but which, due to "enemy action", they were incapable of delivering. All of these motorcycles were obtained from the War Office, through requisition, for use by the Canadian Army in the United Kingdom." So they definitely had almost 600 Triumphs (must have been 3SWs considering that this was June 1941), and judging by the pictures of CC74408, they weren't new when they were transferred to the Canadians. And they were used in the UK, so parts must have been available through the British Army workshops. These 74xxx census numbers were RASC, not RAOC. I can imagine that your bike was used by the Canadian Forces during the liberation of Europe as a RASC bike ("second line"). It may have been abandoned in Holland in 1945, bought and civilianised by a Rotterdam dealer, then bought by a farmer and finely it has ended up at your place... Just a thought...

And then it went silent... Just wondering, was this the information that you were looking for Ron?

Fantastic discovery Rik! 🤩

The Triumph factory was not even a specific target as can be seen in this overlay...

As explained previously, Ron's frame number TL 18142 comes from the next contract (C/6128). This was a contract for 1.000 bikes (frame numbers TL 17300 - 18299 and census numbers C72366 - 72585 ; C80038 - 80763 ; one C/6128 bike went to the RAOC, with census number C4359296). According to Messrs O&M, production started "after C/5108 ", which would mean in approximately March 1940. O&M also give us a production rate of 300 bikes per week, which would mean that Ron's frame would have left the factory in approximately March - April 1940. Anecdote: still according to Messrs O&M, frame number 17366 was converted to carry a Bren gun, and this wasn't a very clever idea apparently... Strangely enough, the bike in the article is wearing a contract C/5108 census number...

The difference between the highest number 29683 and the lowest number 26863 is 2.820, which pretty much covers the 3.300 bikes in this contract C/5108. There must have been a few hundred bikes before and / or after these 6 examples. At the same time, we can also see that Ron's engine was made towards the end of this contract. When Triumph started building this contract on September 28th 1939, at 150 bikes per week, it would have taken approximately 22 weeks to produce the complete contract. Which makes me think that Ron's engine must have left the Triumph factory somewhere in February 1940. This is my best guess...

I've just been trawling through my Triumph files, and I have found pictures of five other contract C/5108 Triumphs: 1. engine number 26863: No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C63410) from the contract C/5108 sequence. 2. engine number 27069: No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C63511) from the contract C/5108 sequence. 3. engine number 28163: No stamped contract number, M68 acceptance marking but no stamped census number. 4. engine number 28594: Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking and a stamped census number (C71435) from the contract C/5108 sequence. The engine number is weird, there is an extra "3" in front of the 28594 number. Why...? 5. engine number 29227: Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking but no stamped census number (C71435). 6. engine number 29683 is Ron's engine: Contract number C5108 stamped on crankcases, M68 acceptance marking but no census number from the C/5108 range.

Just found this interesting Luftwaffe target map for the Coventry Blitz: Full scale version here: https://coventry.digital/asset/52053# (tried to embed this picture but it didn't work out...)

Well, as you can see from my previous post, census number C74307 is not in the allotted series. It is true that the early RASC bikes often had their census number stamped on the crankcases, but this number was always preceded by the C prefix for motorCycles. The C is missing here... But... When I look in the Chilwell list, census numbers C74000 - 75249 were reserved for the Canadian Forces (hence prefix CC). Here's an example: It wouldn't surprise me if your 3SW would have been one of the bikes that had been transferred to the Canadians. They may have stamped their own census number (less CC prefix) on the crankcases... We do have the details (original British census number against new Canadian census number) for the Nortons that were transferred to the Canadian Forces. Unfortunately I don't have a similar list for the Triumphs...

Hello Ron, Welcome on board. That's a nice one you've got there! Unfortunately the Triumph factory ledgers were destroyed during the Coventry Blitz in November 1940, so it won't be possible to give you exact details about your bike. But there are a few hints: The military contract number is C/5108. This was a contract for 3.300 bikes. The Ministry of Supply had placed this order in September 1939, shortly after the war declaration against Nazi Germany. Production was to start on September 28th 1939, at 150 bikes per week. Contract C/5108 was an RASC (Royal Army Service Corps) contract, the issued census numbers were C60788 - 61000 ; C62686 - 62885 ; C62916 - 63085 ; C63144 - 63585 ; C69586 - 70088 ; C70586 - 72365 . For the early RASC contracts the census number was always applied on the front and rear numberplates. Census number on the petrol tank came later... It is impossible to calculate the census number for an early RASC contract unfortunately. Due to the loss of the factory ledgers during the Coventry Blitz, we don't know the exact first and last frame and engine numbers of this contract. So we can't say if it's an early C/5108 bike (of which quite a few went with the BEF to France during the Phoney War), or a later one that probably stayed in England all its life. But the frame number TL 18142 fits in the 17300 - 18299 batch of the next RASC contract (C/6128). This was a contract for 1.000 bikes, with census numbers C72366 - 72585 ; C80038 - 80763 ; one C/6128 bike went to the RAOC, with census number C4359296. Looks as if your bike doesn't have its original engine anymore, which is not unusual... The broad arrow over M68 is the "acceptance marking", stamped by a resident MoS inspector. Here's a few pictures of some C/5108 bikes, to give you an idea... (first one is BEF, captured by the Germans after the Dunkirk retreat). Plus a scan from the appropriate MoS ledger entry.