To drive - or not to drive, that is the question!!

[ArtistsRifles]

So - having paraphrased the Great Bard in the title - the question is do you drive a vehicle to a show - or even just drive around in general - or does it travel on a low-loader??

 

Reason I ask is the consensus of opinion on the Stalwart owners list is put it on a lowloader (a) because of fuel consumption and (b) because it's a 40+ year old vehicle and might break down - and if it does the average RAC/AA type won;t be able to fix it. Seems a degree of logic there

 

However - after talking to Staurt, Lee, Kevin and others down at Coahouse Fort today I'm left with the impression that driving them is not such a big issue (provided you can affrd the fuel )

 

Thus the questions - provided you're vehicle is road legal:

* would you drive to a show or just on a local cruise around- or would you only ever transport it there????

*Is there a "cut-off" range (say 40 miles as an arbitrary figure) below which you'd drive and over which it's transporter time??

* Would driving in a convoy affect either of the above decisions???

[mick garner]

Hi Neil,

I would probably drive much further than my usual 40 miles radius if I was staying at the show over the weekend, if it's just a steam rally or small MV show i'll stick to my usual 40 miles, I've only just bought a custom trike and I'm not sure how far i'll travel on that. Haven't done any shows with that so can't wait for the show season to come. I've had a few problems with it over the past few weeks so I think I need to learn to trust it and be sure it won't break down before I will do any long-distance runs.

P.S Please do not kill me for mentioning something that is not military.

Mick.

[Richard Grosvenor]

Drive!

 

I love driving my MV's. I try and take mine for a run every week when the weathers good if I can.

Saving that, the furthest I've gone in the Militant is about 85 miles and I think with that direct injection lump thumping away at the side of me that's about far enough!

I've done about the same with the ZIL on our local road run. But apart from the heat from the engine and the fact that ZIL heaters only have two settings ( hot and very hot ) I would take it further. It was returning just under 6 MPG which I thought was quite good..

The way I look at fuel consumption is when the tank's empty, fill it back up again. You're not using then every day and a night out probably cost as much as a tank of fuel!

 

I've never traveled to a show in convoy but hopefully will this year and I think it will be nice to have other vehicle of the same type, age and speed around me.

 

Regards

Richard

[ashley]

Hi all,

i will always try and drive the jeep to a show, but i ve` come to the conclusion that my lone drives to beltring are really a thing of the past (130 miles to include the dreaded M25) though through this forum i am sure that i (we) should be able to meet up with another forum member along the route.

 

Saying that i am looking to purchase a trailer to tow the jeep on (another minefield) but i expect i`ll only use it possibly 1-2 times a year, but the outlay should repay itself through less maintenance and more usage in respect to fuel costs.

Just a few thoughts.

Ashley

[saracenstump]

hi all,

we always drive with at least 2 vehicles because if one breaksdown help is at hand even if its just to tow to a safe place to try and sort it out.many hands make light work or at least 20 to push a dead saracen!!!! :lol:

as for range trying to not completely knackering yourself through driving is always an advantage but if its weekend rather than a day i'll go a little further.

the drivings the best bit!!!!

[Mark]

DRIVE! otherwise why have it, it is there to be enjoyed when driven

[Marmite!!]

hi all,

we always drive with at least 2 vehicles because if one breaksdown help is at hand even if its just to tow to a safe place to try and sort it out.many hands make light work or at least 20 to push a dead saracen!!!! :lol:

as for range trying to not completely knackering yourself through driving is always an advantage but if its weekend rather than a day i'll go a little further.

the drivings the best bit!!!!

 

What do you mean, IF one breaksdown, surley you mean WHEN or are you leaving Kevin's Ferret in the garage from now on :wink:

[sirhc]

I agree with Mark. The army drove them, that's what they were built for. I know from experience that if they're not driven you end up with more problems. My Ferret hasn't been used properly for a while and everything is now empty of oil as the seals have dried out. When it was out on the roads all the time it never had any problems.

 

If you tried to low loader your vehicle to every show you would never go to any. They aren't cheap at all to hire, even more expensive to buy and keep. If the vehicle has wheels drive it! If it has tracks then that is a little bit different, but still possible over short distances.

 

Always try to go on long journeys with at least one other vehicle, especially when you're proving a restoration or a major repair. I have driven my Ferret all through the night before with no problems. It wasn't too tiring either, the cold air gave me a few more mpg and kept me awake!

 

Chris

[ArtistsRifles]

Interesting range of views

 

Primary reason for asking - of course - was to get a feel for the best wat of getting a prospective purchase home. Works out at £96 of fuel to get home unaided - possibly £300 on a low loader. Sorely tempted now to drive it home given the reports on performance and reliability from the current owner.....

[Marmite!!]

Interesting range of views

 

Primary reason for asking - of course - was to get a feel for the best wat of getting a prospective purchase home. Works out at £96 of fuel to get home unaided - possibly £300 on a low loader. Sorely tempted now to drive it home given the reports on performance and reliability from the current owner.....

 

Why not do a deal with the seller where he delivers (drives) it for a fixed fee & you give him a lift home, if it's as reliable as he says he shouldn't have to much of a problem with that..

[ArtistsRifles]

Interesting range of views

 

Primary reason for asking - of course - was to get a feel for the best wat of getting a prospective purchase home. Works out at £96 of fuel to get home unaided - possibly £300 on a low loader. Sorely tempted now to drive it home given the reports on performance and reliability from the current owner.....

 

Why not do a deal with the seller where he delivers (drives) it for a fixed fee & you give him a lift home, if it's as reliable as he says he shouldn't have to much of a problem with that..

 

Good idea - spoils my fun though And I need to have a destination in mind before I could do that sort of deal Right now I'm thinking I might see about getting her left in situ until something can be sorted out in that department.

[Marmite!!]

We could probably sort out some outside storage for you not a million miles away from you, I'll check it out tomorrow, we will know this week about the other storage we were talking about..

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks Lee - there's no immediate rush as such!! I'm not going to look at her till next Saturday and, if we can arrange a deal thats equitable to both parties, it's going to take another couple of weeks after that (at least) to arrange the money and insurance etc.

[Cara]

We all drive our vehicles to every show, no matter how far. It is much more fun and we have a large convoy (Which is ever growing). :lol:

 

The vehicles we drive are mostly jimmy's, but the halftrack is also included in this. What is the point of having a beautiful vehicle if you don't drive it anywhere !!

 

We have a couple of spare pairs of tracks which we purchased this year (Cheap), also, it would cost more to low load it to events than petrol it uses. We drove it from Farnborough to the Victory show last year and I believe it is booked to go to Normandy this year also.

 

Our guys know enough about our vehicles that if they do break down we can fix them, if not we tow it with one of the other trucks. We turned up at the Military Odyssey show last year with an extra Jimmy we picked up on the way, which had broken down on the motorway. We also carry a few extra parts and tools just in case. Always better to be safe than sorry.

 

Always drive !!

 

Cara

x

[Cara]

Interesting range of views

 

Primary reason for asking - of course - was to get a feel for the best wat of getting a prospective purchase home. Works out at £96 of fuel to get home unaided - possibly £300 on a low loader. Sorely tempted now to drive it home given the reports on performance and reliability from the current owner.....

 

My friend drove my Workshop back from Newcastle last year, blew the engine near Peterborough. It cost me £100 in fuel to drive the Dodge there and to tow it back home. Lots less than what it would have cost me to lowload it or get it recovered some other way.

 

But then again, on hindsight, not sure my friend knew how to drive the Workshop, don't believe it would have broken down if myself or Mick had gone to pick it up. Oh well.

 

Cara

x

[AlienFTM]

If it has tracks then that is a little bit different, but still possible over short distances.

 

I can no longer remember what the track life was of a Scorpion. The figure 500 miles sticks in my mind but I really cannot remember. Maybe that was the life of a Chieftain engine?

 

Notwithstanding the cost of 152 track links (76 per track IIRC), if you haven't ever changed tracks, be prepared for a hot, sweaty all-day three-man job (and best not in winter when your fingers will be cold ...).

 

Consider how often you want to go through (how often you can afford / source the new track for) a track change. That's why even CVR(T)s got / get carted around on trains / lowloaders, even though they are perfectly suitable to drive on public roads.

[tyler]

We always drive, on average we do 1000mls a year in each vehicle (dry or wet), the vehicles were built to be driven not sit stationary, Also you can either spend money on fixing you vehicle (due to lack of use), or you can spend the money on fuel and enjoy driving the vehicle.

We almost always travel in a convoy for enjoyment and it being pratical to do so is just a bonus.

 

As long as people enjoy their vehicles thats the main thing.

 

Tyler.

[Jessie The Jeep]

All the local events I drive my jeep to, up to a radius of about 120 miles or so. After that, we tow it, and either camp at the event site, or find a local camp site and drive the jeep to the event from there.

 

We clock up around 2000 miles a year, mostly shows, but sometimes just out for fun.

 

Out of season down time is low as our last event of 05 was in mid November, and our first of 06 was mid February. During this time, I try and drive the jeep once every couple of weeks and run it a short while once a week, just to keep it's joints working! I always make sure after a winter run out to hose off any salt before putting it away.

 

A similar situation arose for the engineers at RAF Hendon. They were visiting Duxford where 'The Fighter Collection' were rebuilding a Fury for them. Looking at the other Fighter Collection aircraft, the Hendon guys asked how all these airworthy aircraft were kept so clean and new looking. The TFC guys replied "it's because we use them all the time".

 

It is easier to preserve and maintain a mechanical item by careful use, rather than leave it standing.

 

Steve

Edited June 3, 2009 by Jessie The Jeep

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks folks. Intersting points of view

 

Now - to compound the issue - one of the reasons for having a vehicle like a Stalwart moved rather than driven is the fact that they do not like being towed any great distance and certainly not at any speed in the event of break-down and recovery being required (which kind of brings us back to another thread on here about breakdown cover for H.M.V.'s!!).

 

As they are all part of the same family - how do those who whizz around in Saracens and Saladins get on in regards to this point???

[sean101ryan]

We all drive in convoy including a trip to Belgium annually, the CVR(W) Fox included before it was sold. The owner of that now has a Sabre but had to pay another heap of cash for a 24t beavertail Volvo with 9t hiab crane to carry it (may be available for hire when he's got it serviced and passed his HGV!).

 

Not looking forward to the track bashing later this year, he has a new set to go on the Sabre.

[rapier rob]

Definitely Drive!

 

After all, whats the point of having them if you don't use them, If I had something that only did 40mph I'd stick to shows in the south east, but with a V8 and power steering its just like driving a car, but more fun!

 

We always drive to shows, quite often in convoy and have had no problems.

[sirhc]

Changing CVRT track isn't too much bother. It's not that heavy (in relative terms.) We have had our Spartan up on stands with all the wheels and track off in order to spray everything. Track isn't the biggest problem, roadwheels seem to be more of a concern. They deteriorate with age. We fitted a brand new one and after 23 miles the rubber came off completely and overtook us going down a hill. Trick is to have plenty of spares of both wheels and tracks!

 

Chris

[Mark]

Thanks folks. Intersting points of view

 

Now - to compound the issue - one of the reasons for having a vehicle like a Stalwart moved rather than driven is the fact that they do not like being towed any great distance and certainly not at any speed in the event of break-down and recovery being required (which kind of brings us back to another thread on here about breakdown cover for H.M.V.'s!!).

 

As they are all part of the same family - how do those who whizz around in Saracens and Saladins get on in regards to this point???

 

The problem with driving stollies on the road is the wind up you get in the wheels, it apparently needs to be driven every so often on rough ground to "unwind" them, just a thought :idea:

[ArtistsRifles]

Thanks folks. Intersting points of view

 

Now - to compound the issue - one of the reasons for having a vehicle like a Stalwart moved rather than driven is the fact that they do not like being towed any great distance and certainly not at any speed in the event of break-down and recovery being required (which kind of brings us back to another thread on here about breakdown cover for H.M.V.'s!!).

 

As they are all part of the same family - how do those who whizz around in Saracens and Saladins get on in regards to this point???

 

The problem with driving stollies on the road is the wind up you get in the wheels, it apparently needs to be driven every so often on rough ground to "unwind" them, just a thought :idea:

 

Below is the full answer from the Stalwart Owners list on this very topic.

Do I assume then, that although Saracens and Saladins effectively have the same running gear, the wind-up effects are not so severe on them???

 

> I know the Avis 6x6 suffers from wind-up of the drive shafts if used

> on tarmac's roads and will eventually snap.

 

No they wont.

 

> Also that the only cure is to get off-road for a period of time

 

Largely a waste of time.

 

How far are you going to drive it at a little over 2mpg?

Do not believe the stories about anything greater, those who have accurately measured all have figures in the >2, <2.5 region.

 

> Question is - as an average ('cos very vehicle is different) - how

> many miles is it considered safe to do on tarmac'd roads before you

> need to get off-road and allow the wind-up to dissipate.

 

Its not the drive shafts but the tracta joints that are susceptible as they finally run out of oil, even submerged, owing to the continual sealing" force on the faces. These then cold-weld and get torn apart as the joint revolves causing pits in the drive claws and joint tongues.

 

The army uses a graphite additive (commercially, Acheson's Oil Dag) to provide some "plated" lubrication, stripped parts from ex-mil items with black, graphited oil, are perfect.

 

Consider; the tyres are matched, as required, to the max 2" spec front to rear; have a circumference of 12ft 8¾" when new and the vehicle is 20ft 10" long. Moving it its own length has the transmission wound up therefore.

 

Secondly, any corner necessarily (by geometric fact) has all six wheels describe a different arc and travel quite differing distances and causes instant wind up, so much so it is necessary to keep some power on during corners as the braking effect is quite considerable.

 

The transmission is torque limited by the tyres, anecdotal evidence suggests the relatively small rubber contact area of standard "Bar-Grip" NDCC tyres is helpful, more modern and/or radial alternatives may well cause huge trouble.

 

> Also - how long do you have to spend off-road before it's cleared the

> condition, i.e. - if stored on a farm/stables would a quick whizz around

> on the rough ground be enough?

 

Unless you have several tens of miles of arrow straight road, its pointless, except perhaps to allow some oil to replenish the tracta drive joints.

 

It is never not wound up unless you jack the whole vehicle off the ground.

 

This hare set running and now becomes oft spoken Stolly "folklore", is derived from the BAOR drivers pamphlet (which has my Stalwart on the cover) and the folklore ignores the fact that the suggestion that wind up be relieved off road is specifically for "fast" Autobahn (i.e. straight) travel of over 30kms, the document purposely and rightly ignores the recommendation for "twisty" roads.

 

The mil additive called up in the service schedule and SSI is Acheson's Oil Dag, it is gobsmackingly expensive too.

 

Tyre matching is very important too.

 

I have done 50ml on a new tracta joint which then had to be accessed for other reasons and it was already pitted using plain EP90 gear oil albeit GL5 spec.

 

I have stripped many hubs and BBs that were direct ex-mil and have some more here yet to be opened up; the oil is like thick, black Indian Ink but the parts, especially tractas, when cleaned have a perfect mirror finish always.

 

Also - as regards the OilDag/gear oil mix:

 

Stalwarts are specified for OEP220, this is an 80W/90 GL4 gear oil. For temperate use the GL4 or preferably 5 spec 90EP is fine.

 

The SSI calls for OX320 which is Oildag. It says:

"When new assemblies are fitted and at the 500 mile servicing, the following quantities of OX320 should be included in the OEP220 used:

Transfer box (my note - it feeds the CBBs) 2/3rd pint (Imperial) Front and rear bevel boxes 1/3rd pint (Imperial)"

 

It goes on to say the central lube tank should be initially filled with 19 pints (Imp) of OEP220 and 1 1/3 pints of OX320. (This assumes the hubs have been pre-loaded with 5 1/3rd pints of OEP220 and OX320)

 

It then has the BBs filled by removing their level plugs and waiting up to 2 hrs for oil to appear, then a further 12 pints of OEP220 is introduced into the central lube and the vehicle run until the level stabilises. Topping-up is done with OEP220 only.

 

(Edited to include Oil/OilDag mix.)

[sirhc]

Neil,

I am fully aware of the windup problems with the Fv600 series. My friend has a Saladin and a Saracen, he drives them once a year from Derby to Dorset, and has done for 10 years. He is not afraid of working on them, both require a lot of servicing and repair before and after the journey. It is possible to drive your Stalwart anywhere you like, providing you look after it properly.

 

Incidently Ferrets also suffer from windup. I take mine over the grass at motorway service stations on long journeys.

 

Chris