Adam Elsdon Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I have had a few discussions with people over a period of time regarding the levels of preservation/presentation of military vehicles that you see at shows or used as examples in magazines and books. Mine (and a few others) personal preference is a vehicle that looks like it has seen a bit of use, has the equipment it carried as required for the job and not by the book, i.e. imagine picking up a Snatch land rover from Afghanistan and plonking it down at a show. Now then, would it win awards, would it become the celebration of books and magazines? after all its dirty, battered doesnt have its full C.E.S. its stickers are in the wrong place according to army directives and the end user field modifications definitely dont appear in army publications. Probably not. I used the Afghanistan example above as its recent in the news and everyone has seen them. Now for example take a Jeep/bedford/etc, used by the British in holland WW2 its been battling its way across europe, spares and everything else is hard to come by, very doubtful it has all of the kit it should have, its a warhorse. Pick it up and drop it into a show now, i doubt it would get much of a look in. What is the fascination with the over restored examples with every single nick nack and option attached, dont get me wrong, its individual taste, ownership etc but i look at stuff like that and switch off, there are whole books and magazine articles dedicated to a single marque only showing over restored vehicles, is that really the way to go with MV restoration...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I am with you on this one,when we won best in show at Duxford i was amazed they picked us.there were jeeps with dummy GIs etc etc and i thought they looked great. When i quized the judges they said,looked like its in service.I prefer the arsefart look but thats because i really wouldnt have the patience to restore to a standard better than new.I also have a brown water can and the ces to prove it was supposed to be brown,this winds them up.even one of the experts says they were never brown,because he has never seen one.yet he will quote the ces for other peoples guidence.All gets a bit silly.no the expert wasnt Clive.he is a definate brown can man. I can appreciate everbodys efforts as long as they all get saved and continue to cause other rd users to get annoyed at the slower speeds,and any other department that cant pigeon hole the vehicles or us.:yay::-D Saga Rules OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) There seem to be five categories of restoration one could aim for, all equally legitimate. As it left the factory. As it would be tarted up for an annual inspection As it would be in daily usage As it would be in battle As it would be stored in used condition in a vehicle depot Hopefully just marked & kitted out only with the paraphernalia that it would have for that role eg a vehicle restored with depot marked stencilling wouldn't have a gun & flags on it. I get the feeling that some judging seems to take no account of whether the vehicle shows signs of proper servicing. I have seen awards go to vehicles that clearly have had a lot of effort applied, but many features on it that don't reflect the actual state of affairs in service. But do we have to have judging at all? I declined to be judged on a vehicle that I didn't restore, the judge asked if I wanted to change my mind as there would be a prize. But what would be the point in that? I have won prizes when I thought some other vehicles were more deserving. Do we really need judging anyway? I know below I proudly proclaim that I did get a first prize 19 years ago. The joke is I was the only armoured vehicle there! So doesn't mean much really :-) Edited February 22, 2009 by fv1609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Burley Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I like the factory look.But also like the look of a used and abused vehicle in a diorama se-up.For us when it came to restoring a Jeep,we wanted a factory fresh example.There are enough tired and roppey Jeeps on the show circuit as it is.I didnt want to add another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 The Stalwart should be looking as it would out on exercise in BAOR in the late Eighties. Battered side gates, disruptive paint scheme and grey/low viz markings. Just need to get the stretchy material for the pick handle/shovel/wooden jacking block straps and it's more or less there. Following the rebuild I could have opted to have everything straightened out and gone for a parade finish in DBG but I didn't fancy that at all Parades and me never got on and somehow I don't think the old girl would have liked it either.... I know there was an element of poilitics in it (they told me so!!) but we still collected the runner up plaque at the 2007 W&P show for the Amphibious class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I try to keep mine tidy. For a long time the Dodge went round with genuine Somme mud on her. That has now had to be washed off for a quick repaint, with rollers and brushs. I can't see the point of having a vehicle and treating it like a china horse. Most of her kit is used at shows anyway so it looks it. As for show judges, It's my toy, why care what others think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I like a combatlook. Mud, equipment etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Never mind what condition a vehicle may be in if it had crossed half of war torn Europe in 44/45. If you look today at vehicles on an RAF airfield, or in an army base, you find rust holes on doors, bent wings, rusty panels, bend brackets and clips. Not to mention brush painting that seems to be done with the yard broom, without knocking the dust out of it. Felt pen graffiti, non matching paint on adjacent panels , the works.... Most "in service" vehicles have knocks and scrapes. I really don't like the factory look, and do we really now what the Factory look actually was. A Wartime jeep was expected to last a few weeks or months. I doubt if much effort was put into these throw away vehicles paint finish anyhow. Edited February 22, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop larkin Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 If you are going to the trouble of restoring a vehicle, I think its worth doing to a standard similar to a fresh out the factory look. It may look a bit straight and shiny for the first year, but it will then start to show signs of use and have the worn in look. This is what I have done with the Chevy. I have restored her to very high standard, but will not be doing any more work (other than routine service work) in order to keep the fresh look. If the paint scratches I'll touch it up with a brush ect. After only a year on the circuit with hairy arsed re-enactors climbing in and out the back, tents being chucked in and general mud/road dirt it already looks used. Although not battle field used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazz Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I went to a show at Harperley POW camp a couple of years ago with a group of ex and serving squaddies , there was a CVR(T) Sabre? on display there. The rest of the guys and myself made comments re its immaculate condition more or less stating "never seen 1 in that condition, even when issued". Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84KB11 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 My vote goes for the "in-service" look. I like to see vehicles how they would be when being used. Usually more interesting to look at, and demonstrates all the work rounds and fixes, especially where is best to hide the beer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I think it is up to personal preference. I wanted to make the Ward La France nice but wasn't concerned about it being shiny. Yes, I gave it a coat of paint but that's because the French had painted various bits yellow and it would look very odd with some bits having new paint and other bits looking old and tired. I was very happy with the end result but am just as happy with the wrecker looking dirty and greasy - as a wrecker should. However, if someone wants to portray a wrecker spotlessly clean - who am I to say it’s not correct. The REME vehicles were inspected just as thoroughly as other units vehicles. I am amazed at the so called experts who say this and that is not correct. Who knows what went on in the field, unless of course you were a serving soldier at the time? Even then you could only say what you or your unit did during your service. If you attempted a restoration of a high standard then I am in agreement it should look as it has just left the factory - otherwise what‘s the point in doing it in the first place! But that is my opinion - no one elses. Likewise, people may choose to restore a vehicle to show a particular event or time such as The Bulge, Market Garden, etc. When it comes to the public I would imagine they look at our restored vehicles as if they had just rolled out of the factory rather than seen active service. Whatever way you restore your pride and joy, remember it is your vehicle and your choice. If someone doesn’t like it, tell them to …………………. and go bother someone who cares. Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 There was some points above about the "Experts" comments on stuff, some of these are way off mark, and probably stem from only referring to restored examples as opposed to original items. Anybody feel that magazines/books in some cases are responsible for the way vehicles are presented, i would rather see one original photo of a vehicle in service than ten restored examples. I think there is a case for heavily restored items, rare stuff that has been rescued from a wreck, you wouldnt want to keep going back and repeatedly sorting it, do it up to a high standard and letting it mellow gracefully. Then you do get the other side of the coin, a nice serviceable aged example of a vehicle, lands up getting stripped and rebuilt, to my mind destroying the very essence of what it was. Nice to see someone has attached a poll, can only make for interesting opinion within the MV scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
croc Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I reckon there is an option missing, "how the vehicle has been used for the majority of its' existance" much as I like, for example, Matador gun tractors I have a soft spot for timber cranes. I don't see why everything has to go back to military colours Dave Weedons Rotti looks great in Sunters livery and I know of a Diamond T in a shed, that hasn't been out for some time, that looks good as a civvy wrecker, it would be a shame to paint it drab again. People are forever wanting to know what the "correct" paint is for whatever vehicle they have got. It doesn't matter, paint your vehicle how you like, it isn't a "military vehicle" anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) Having spent many years trying to keep Forceful looking reasonable I have now settled for the 'as first seen at auction' look, which coming along nicely, it'll be perfect in a few years! :-D Although I have to admit a well presented parade look is splendid. Edited February 23, 2009 by gritineye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I reckon there is an option missing, "how the vehicle has been used for the majority of its' existance" much as I like, for example, Matador gun tractors I have a soft spot for timber cranes. I don't see why everything has to go back to military colours Dave Weedons Rotti looks great in Sunters livery and I know of a Diamond T in a shed, that hasn't been out for some time, that looks good as a civvy wrecker, it would be a shame to paint it drab again.People are forever wanting to know what the "correct" paint is for whatever vehicle they have got. It doesn't matter, paint your vehicle how you like, it isn't a "military vehicle" anymore. That Diamond T does have some nice hand applied striping.....and a large hydraulic winch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 i would rather see one original photo of a vehicle in service than ten restored examples. Me too! If those magazines were at least 50% in service photos I would buy both every month. you wouldnt want to keep going back and repeatedly sorting it, do it up to a high standard and letting it mellow gracefully. No you wouldn't but time takes its toll. I restored my Shorland 22 years ago. I hadn't moved it for 12 years & I am now paying the price. With other things going on, it will be several years before it will be re-restored. So I am going to try to get it up to a safe running restoration ASAP. The priority has always to be automotive first with emphasis on wheels, tyres & brakes. Then fancy bits including painting & then rubbing down chassis etc. As I dismantle bodywork & armour to get to components logic would suggest I work on the chassis & internal bodywork, but this will take to long. Once it is running well & got new paintwork externally I will take it to shows again. Over successive winters I can dismantle bits again & do a thorough job. But if I try to get it all sorted in one go then it won't be out & about for a few years. I want to enjoy it now, so running restorations are fine in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 X 6 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 This is probably one of the most profound questions ever to have be asked on this, or any other, forum. What I would say is that we should feel ourselves fortunate that, thus far, the Euroweasels in Brussels have not yet set some Europe wide standard of restoration that we must all abide by. Until they do, we can all please ourselves. Praise the Lord. :yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambo1969 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I like mine just as it is. Not looking to win any prizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markheliops Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I like mine just as it is. Not looking to win any prizes. Quite right Rambo. I don't think any of us set out to win prizes - but if people keep throwing them at me - I'm happy to say thank you very much. Markheliops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodge Deep Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 My opinion is that the 'out in the field/in service' look is the most interesting... We all know what a spotless Jeep/a pristine Dodge/an Immaculate Lightweight Landy looks like... But for my money the research, imagination and effort in putting a vehicle into a historical context (this is how it looked at the Bulge or in the Bocage or Falklands or whatever) shows a greater appreciation of the purpose of the machine and the attitude of the men who used them. They weren't cherished or kept clean and in many cases actively disliked by the men who had to use them! However the 'judging' of military vehicles is a bit of a grey area as they mostly seem to be judged on the criteria applied to the restoration of vintage cars. How Shiny? How Straight? How perfect the Paint? One set of rules applied to a very different type of vehicle. How for example would you pick out the best vehicle from a jeep and e-type and a Model T-Ford? The original paint finish on a model T is shocking... sprayed in dusty sheds with very crude equipment... do you replicate that... or go for the perfect "35k Merecdes" finish? Trim finish on older Jags could be crap but do you ever see that in restored ones? No & a Jeep could've been transported on the open deck of a ship to to arrive at its destination stormlashed salted and beginning to rust already! I've been to car shows and even taken part (never won though lol!) but judges don't seem to like to see spent 30cal shells rolling about on the floor, crushed k ration boxes, webbing slung from any available protruberences... they just see mess! "ooh lets pick the glossy shiny Landrover parked over mirrors so you can see there's no muck in the wheelarches" go figure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think we see examples of overly restored vehicles. I agree 100% with Mark H. Keep it how YOU like it. I bought my MUTT of ToooootallMike, who now runs a barrel-organ in Venice. He painted it a sort of sandy brown colour instead of the de riguer Vietnam drab. Good. I've found one pic of a bonnet showing markings from Gulf War 1. Suits me. I won't be entering it in any Gulf War displays and I don't do "dressing up" (fat and forty-nine precludes and I would look a total tosser - more than usual :nono:). I like it as it is, so I may add the markings and see how we go. Civvy trucks are often over-restored, all shiny and perfect. Nice but unrealistic. But they look great. I like seeing vehicles in an "original" state as far as possible. Military vehicles can look plain wrong when one has learned how these situations arise. But , actually, if you want to paint your pride and joy in a pink and grey cammo, good for you. Your cash, your paint, your time, your fun. Nuff said by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreadavide Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 How for example would you pick out the best vehicle from a jeep and e-type and a Model T-Ford? The original paint finish on a model T is shocking... sprayed in dusty sheds with very crude equipment... do you replicate that... or go for the perfect "35k Merecdes" finish? Funny how this seems tailored on my attitude with my Ford Model T. It was a workhorse in Argentina, the four coils system has been replaced in the fifties by a conventional alternator-coil-dizzy, there is not a gram of chrome remaining... and so on... But this is how she was in (civilian) service. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 A friend of mine, who is well placed in the cruise, drifting type vehicle world, told me of a car that won the award for best vehicle at a very prestigious show. The body kit, wheels and ice fitted to the vehicle added up to some £100,00, (Yes one hunderd thousand pounds) Obviously you would take a lot of care of such a vehicle, and it was always trailered to events. Mind you, they had to really, seeing as it had no engine fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Burley Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I wanted my Jeep to be restored to a factory fresh one,after seeing Tony Sudds example as a kid parked in Dunton Road Bermondsey outside his local motor factors.It was a sunny day,and it was parked outside some pre-war cottages.It just looked so right. This was echoed by my father,who was fortunate as a kid to be passenger in many a "Brand new" Jeeps from late 42.His sister was engaged to a U.S. officer in military intelligance.And spent many a time being dropped off to his home next door to the NAFFI in Kennington south london.Has he said it was something to be travelling around in a Jeep.Because at that time not a lot of people knew what they were,as they had not long been introduced,and a new vehicle at that......... Our Jeep as restored by Tony Sudds. Also regarding the in service look.I remember walking through rows of 101 as a kid in Chelsea Baracks.All nicely presented in one coat of Nato Green.And not a dent or pop riveted repair plate in site.So there are many ways to have that in service look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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