WW1 Riker restoration project

[alsfarms]

We may have a real problem if we had to rely on a city folks description and characterization of WW-1 Khaki green as defined by a "fresh cow pie".  Modern city folk likely have never had the joy of a piping hot steaming cow pie on a cool morning, let alone study the dang thing for color!!!  🙂 🙂   I for one know exactly what that means as I grew up on a working dairy and beef cattle farm.  Here is a test question for those WW-2 experts among us.  What is, in your mind "S--- on a shingle"?  With this question, not only can we equate cow pie to the green Khaki color, but with the above question, we can equate taste and smell to a product that we eat!  Now back to Riker and military.  Did any of the WW-1 Allied Navy equipment come adorned in Navy Blue, (similar to WW-2)?  Or during WW-1 did our Navy's use Khaki green also? 

Andy, nice article on early color photography.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is another Military question that I am not real familiar with.  My wife, whose mothers family is Australian, had a Grandad and Great Uncle leave from Oz and serve England during the Borer Wars in SA.  How much motorized equipment was used during the second conflict?  Most of what I have seen is certainly Infantry and lots of Calvary.  My only hold on that conflict is a couple of Martini rifles in my gun case.

Al

[Rootes75]

In 1902 it was cavalry and foot. Machine guns were in use by then, British and Austrailians using the Maxim and the Boers using the Colt 95. Iirc it was nicknamed the potato digger but I could be wrong.

[Chris Hall]

It was called the potato digger due to the action on re-cocking. There was an arm that projected downwards as the action moved rearward and this resembled the potato digging machines of the day. 
 

I used to own a Colt 1898 with Enfield acceptance markings. We must have received a contract of them as there’s at least 2 more identical guns in the NFC. In WW2 we also received the Marlin version when we were desperate.

[mammoth]

The Boer war saw the start of mechanisation in war and set a template for future conflicts. A number of traction engines were ordered specifically for the task and railways became increasingly important. It also saw the British create concentration camps for civilians - was said to be for the civilians protection but didn't turn out that way.

There is plenty of literature on the subject but you need to look at it with a critical eye as much has been written by the Brits ignoring the atrocities of a colonial war in the name of empire and glorifying their heroes such as Churchill.

[mammoth]

A definitive publication on military colours  is "Warpaint colours and markings of British Army vehicles 1903-2003, Volume 2 by Dick Taylor. However, in spite of the title there only two pages covering WW1 armour.  Kahki colours have been described in terms of "cup of weak tea" and "cup of dark tea".

[10FM68]

38 minutes ago, mammoth said:

 It also saw the British create concentration camps for civilians - was said to be for the civilians protection but didn't turn out that way.

There is plenty of literature on the subject but you need to look at it with a critical eye as much has been written by the Brits ignoring the atrocities of a colonial war in the name of empire and glorifying their heroes such as Churchill.

Feel better now you've given the hobby-horse a bit of a gallop?

10 68

[ruxy]

16 hours ago, Chris Hall said:

It was called the potato digger due to the action on re-cocking. There was an arm that projected downwards as the action moved rearward and this resembled the potato digging machines of the day. 
 

I used to own a Colt 1898 with Enfield acceptance markings. We must have received a contract of them as there’s at least 2 more identical guns in the NFC. In WW2 we also received the Marlin version when we were desperate.

Potato diggers of the day ,  steel wheel mounted ,  pre-hydraulic hitch  -  I  'un-planted'  acres mid-1960's  -  I only knew this machine as a "scratter"  ,,

[alsfarms]

Does someone have a good picture of a "Potato Digger" they could post so those of us that are less informed, have an idea what this gun looks like?

Al

[alsfarms]

I will share a nice Riker advertisement from 1918, for sale on EBAY..  This forum is dedicated to "historical military" for sure.  However, I noted this nice EBAY ad from the same time frame that Locomobile and Riker were working during the great war to this subject Riker that was bought to haul coal for the Lackawanna Coal company here in the US. If you like ads, check this one out and purchase for your collection.

Al

[11th Armoured]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Does someone have a good picture of a "Potato Digger" they could post so those of us that are less informed, have an idea what this gun looks like?

Al

This is the beast in question - there's a picture about halfway down on the right that shows the operating lever that prompted the nickname.

Kevin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Colt–Browning_machine_gun

Edited December 2, 2020 by 11th Armoured

[11th Armoured]

And a short video of one operating...
 

 

[Chris Hall]

Did you hear that MG42 in the background in comparison?

[alsfarms]

Kevin and Chris,  Thanks for posting this machine gun information.  I wonder just how forgiving the "Potato Digger" was when it came to fouling and less than clean conditions?  I have an SKS that would probably shoot half full of mud!  The internet is an amazing place when used correctly, a wealth of information is available at our finger tips.  I am lucky that a good share of the "Browning" family was Utah based and was located just north of me 200 miles.  At that location, the Brownings have several real nice museums, both gun, automobile. and in conjunction with a rail museum.  I just wish they were a bit broader based to include trucks and military.

Al

Edited December 2, 2020 by alsfarms
clarity

[Chris Hall]

It must have been pretty reliable as a version ended up as an aircraft gun. Obviously technology moved on and Brownings design evolved. By the end of WW1 he had designed the BAR and almost perfected his 1917/1919 machine gun.

It would likely in this day and age be a bit alien to think of a gun designer being a household name, but back then.....

and to think his designs are still going strong if not stronger than 100 years ago. The M2 .50 cal, the 1911, the FN35 high power all spring to mind. There’s a photo on the web somewhere showing a WW1 truck (think it was a truck) with 2 potato diggers mounted on adapted tripod mounts. I’ll see if I can find it.

[the DT guy]

steam traction being used during the Boer war

Fowler B5 road locomotive crossing the river with a 10 horse Burrell road loco standing by if needed.  

armored Fowler B5 road locomotive which were not very well liked by crews for obvious reasons so most had the armour  removed.

a preserved Fowler B5 here in the UK which ounce was one of the armoured B5's as it came back to the UK with all the brackets on the boiler to hold the plate on. 

My Fowler A4 road locomotive built in december 1899, under restoration though this is a very old pic she is know in the paint and final assembly faze know. my engine worked for McKenzie's of CapeTown and was used by them with 3 other engines for transporting military supplies from the docks to were ever they were needed. was sold and shipped to Oz in 1903 to work in a mine and returned to the UK on 2003  

 

[Rootes75]

An already very heavy machine, I wonder how much extra weight the armour plating added!

[alsfarms]

DT...

What a lucky fellow you are to be working on, and own, a steam traction engine.  The front wheels are particularly a "showy" piece of the unit.  Have you made first steam yet?  That armor plate must have made for oven like conditions for the crew!  I suppose if the unit was used in a very hostile area, you would consider it a blessing to sweat it out and live to see another day!  These Fowler units have huge flywheels, very impressive.  There must be an engineering point, to the large flywheels, as even the high Horse Power Case units, here in the US, do not have that large rotating mass.  What Horse power rating do the Fowler 4 and 5 have?

Al 

[alsfarms]

Here is a bit of good trivia I ran across regarding Riker trucks and other.......

Al

 

[the DT guy]

12 hours ago, Rootes75 said:

An already very heavy machine, I wonder how much extra weight the armour plating added!

a standard B5 weigh in around 17-18 tonnes full of water and coal so can believe them being 20 ton easy with the extra plate added if not a lot more.

[the DT guy]

5 hours ago, alsfarms said:

DT...

What a lucky fellow you are to be working on, and own, a steam traction engine.  The front wheels are particularly a "showy" piece of the unit.  Have you made first steam yet?  That armor plate must have made for oven like conditions for the crew!  I suppose if the unit was used in a very hostile area, you would consider it a blessing to sweat it out and live to see another day!  These Fowler units have huge flywheels, very impressive.  There must be an engineering point, to the large flywheels, as even the high Horse Power Case units, here in the US, do not have that large rotating mass.  What Horse power rating do the Fowler 4 and 5 have?

Al 

my fowler is an A4 class rated at 6nhp the B5 would be 8nhp but horse power doesn't really mean much with steam as they produce massive amounts of torque as you can drag them down to just a few dozen rpm's and they will keep going. i have steamed my fowler bout this time last year hopefully vid below. 

the flywheels are so big and heavy! as they help balance the engine out when running and also help a lot with momentum so they don't stall so easily when heavy loads are applied. the fowlers rev to around 300rpm comfortably but also they don't have clutches. so you select 1 of the 2 gears then you open the throttle so they start with max load at max torque instantly. certainly very impressive technology for the time they were designed and built way back in the late 1800's (road steam engines in general) and even today they will hold their own against a modern day equivalent.   

 

[alsfarms]

Thanks for posting.  How many Fowler unit exist today?

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is another interesting page with Riker information....

Al

[blastermike]

Hi Al,  im enjoying following your thread and seeing the articles you have and leads your getting, the picture of the diff is not unlike the packard one which has a massive stabilising bar coming forward to attach to a crossmember or round tube? Hope you find some riker parts, keep at it mate

cheers mike

[andypugh]

7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Here is another interesting page with Riker information....

"We have a pressure lubrication system, but you can turn it off once the engine is run-in as it is clearly a silly idea which will never catch on"