Mystery Object - SS Thistlegorm Cargo

[SimonBrown]

In hold number 1, lower deck, of the SS Thistlegorm are a pile of mystery objects. There is debate amongst the team - Alex thinks they might be searchlight mounts, but I feel they look like gearbox casings with a distinctive bell housing shape at one end....however the square section at the other end seems at odds with this.

One image shows the shape/form and the other gives an overall dimension. If anyone needs a specific measurement or two, just let me know.

Its a significant amount of cargo and we have yet to nail it down. Hope the collective thoughts of HMVF can assist?

[john1950]

Is there a cargo manifest? There should have been several copies, One on board that one probably went down with the ship. Insurance company, Lloyds, Port of loading/ Shipping agents.Stevidor company, Ministry of War, Middle East HQ. Port of discharge. Local Shipping Agent. Probably several others, even in wartime the paperwork has to be done.

Edited November 24, 2017 by john1950
addition

[Tony B]

Any idea of what they are made off? Width of the apature etc.  About 2 foot 9 inch in proper measurment. That's a fairly substantial bit of kit. 

[SimonBrown]

11 hours ago, john1950 said:

Is there a cargo manifest?

The search for that continues...so far, every lead has ended in a dead end.

[SimonBrown]

11 hours ago, Tony B said:

Any idea of what they are made off? Width of the apature etc.  About 2 foot 9 inch in proper measurment. That's a fairly substantial bit of kit. 

Substantial, yes. And I have just counted 60 of them in the forward hold. 

Not sure what they are made of. Guess is casting, and looking at the corrosion its ferrous rather than aluminium.

Two more images with a view on the ends with some more measurements. Originally they had covers over the 'bellhousing' end:

 

[David Herbert]

This is a bit of a long shot but although I don't think that water jet propulsion for shallow draught vessels had been developed then, could they be the actual water jet nozzles ? The large end could bolt onto the duct with the propeller in it and the water be accelerated by the reduction in cross section to come out of the square end through what could be steerable vanes. The mechanism for moving the vanes could be internal to keep the outside from catching debris, with the mechanism emerging through the round lump on the side of the big round end.

Another application if the square end does contain some sort of vanes might be that these are part of a heating or ventilating system, with the vanes directing the air as it comes out.

I am not very convinced by either suggestion but can't think of a better one !

Pity we can't pull out some of those new tyres, they are probably in very good condition having been kept in the dark all this time. The salt water will probably not have damaged them at all. They look like 10.50 x 16 to me which is an almost impossible size to find now. Oh well.

David

Edited November 24, 2017 by David Herbert

[Tony B]

I agree with David, I have seen something similar on pumps.  

[john1950]

It might be worth looking for cargo manifests for other ships in the convoy as they may have split the consignment.

[SimonBrown]

1 hour ago, john1950 said:

It might be worth looking for cargo manifests for other ships in the convoy as they may have split the consignment.

Good idea...not one we had thought of...however...

As far as we know, the ship split from the main convoy and towards and headed around the Cape on its own. 

[SimonBrown]

A pump, or part of a pumping system of some form, is not something we had considered - many thanks for these suggestions gentlemen. It is most appreciated.

The form/shape has a real purpose. What needs to go from large diameter cylindrical to smaller square section over the distance of about 2" 9'?

Having looked at the top image again, it does appear there are holes in the bell housing end of things...all ideas most welcome...

[Tony B]

Looking at the top it reminds me of a burner, and the cover. Maybe some sort of bulk tank pipeline sampler or vent valve? 

[john1950]

From what I can gather she was part of a convoy of 16 ships and 4 escorts that rounded the Cape. Convoys seem to split approaching the Horn of Africa for India and Suez etc. Some ship proceed independantly when the main Convoy split, WS 9a. Thistlegorm was heading for Alexandria with supplies for the Western desert force, which turned into the 8th army. She was carrying enough equipment for a whole airfield Including Pundit lights, and a lot of hospital equipment plus aircraft,start trollys, vehicles etc.HMS Carlisle the AAprotection ship for the anchorage ,was struck by debris when she exploded Another ship sunk close by 3 days later was the Rosalie Moller, still loaded with good Welsh coal. They were put into anchorage because a tanker had struck a mine at the entrance to Suez and the wreckage had to be cleared before they could proceed. They were found by German planes looking for the Queen Mary. I wonder if the Jacques Coustaeu archive have a copy of the manifest. He dived the wreck in the 1950s, I also wonder what happened to the motor bike and other items they recovered. Both John Kean who has written a book about the wreck and Peter Rowlands who has dived the wreck seem to quote from the cargo manifest. I wonder if they have a copy. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by john1950
addition correction add

[john1950]

I would be going Light or sound for the mystery objects

[draganm]

the parts are crudely cast, looks like a sand casting. Some kind of steam valving, maybe spare parts for the ship. Not necessarily the Engine, but since it used a triple expansion engine, maybe low pressure waste steam used to heat the ship?  The square end looks like it could hold reed valves (check valves).

 

 

[john1950]

This may not have been a 100% military cargo there may have been civillian export items on board. Ships items would normally be kept in the ships stores. Large items fastened to the deck. Over 60 of them would surggest cargo, they have broken glass items with them.

[wally dugan]

I would doubt that there would be any civilian export items on board

because of a reciprocal act where by Britain would increase war production 

and reduce civilian demand to show that it was totally committed to the war effort and help Britains case for future aid from the USA IE the later lend

lease act

[john1950]

I do not want to go off topic, It was just a suggestion. UK. Exports 1941 estimated £150 million.

[SimonBrown]

Many thanks for all the suggestions. Here's our thoughts:

Spares for the ship itself? Possible, but if they were carrying 60 of them...seems excessive?

Spares for ships of another type? Possible, as the destination was Alexandria.

Light or sound? Yes, possibly...

Vent or valve? Ditto...

We are ruling nothing in, or out. The hunt for the manifest continues, but in the meantime do please keep the suggestions coming.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SimonBrown

[LarryH57]

Those items don't match any Army searchlights I know of and I'd also suggest they belong to a ship.

[john1950]

SS Thistlegorms cargo was destined for Alexandria, A major Royal Navy base. Also building up in that area the RAF desert air force and the desert Army. Along with the flegling specialist forces being developed for that Theatre of Operations, that would eventualy be used all over the world. Probable questions to be answered, Are they made from Ferrous or Non Ferrous metal, what is the flat large end cover made from, are they mounting brackets part way down the cone, what is the small side hole for, are they water proof electrical connections on the side of the square end, does the item inside of the square end fold out? Just some food for thought.

Edited December 12, 2017 by john1950
correction

[john1950]

Just another thought regarding the missing manifest. Has anyone done a search of the Guildhall Library London for any information of the cargo.  

[Philliphastings]

Here’s my guess, some type of stove or  sterilizer for dixies ?

[goanna]

4 hours ago, Philliphastings said:

Here’s my guess, some type of stove or  sterilizer for dixies ?

Close Phil but they are actually dunnies 

[SimonBrown]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:42 PM, john1950 said:

Just another thought regarding the missing manifest. Has anyone done a search of the Guildhall Library London for any information of the cargo.  

Well that was...a very strange coincidence. About the time you were writing that post I was in Hold No1 lower deck having an in-person close look at the mystery objects...

The suggestion of a stove (Thank you Philip) is the closest match to date. They are very, very heavy, ferrous and the photo is suggestive of their form.

If they are dunnies...they are bullet resistant and any tommy taking a break on that would have been confident knowing his backside was covered.

[john1950]

Life is strange sometimes. Being ferrous is interesting.