Post War MVT - you are joking!

[Jack]

Ok, thank you gentlemen, so great points and emotions raised there, I appreciate that but I would be a lot happier if the gloves stayed on.

 

I would like to steer this thread back on topic by saying that this topic started with the question of why vehicles of certain era's are not invited to certain themed events.

 

 

......please continue.

[Marmite!!]

.

 

I would like to steer this thread back on topic by saying that this topic started with the question of why vehicles of certain era's are not invited to certain themed events.

 

 

......please continue.

 

 

I think it very ON topic Jack & the reason being the views of certain WW2 owners/show organisers as stated in the last few posts by Mr. Stevens.. :roll:

[Jessie The Jeep]

During 2005, the NE MVT were invited to several VE Day celebration events. In most cases, Ken had his Champ there. I think there was one event at an art gallery where ONLY WW2 vehicles were requested, at the insistance of the organisers.

 

In the main, it seems that the events we attend up here, only want 'something green'.

 

At the DLI museum show, there are two display areas, one for WW2 and one for post war. I don't have a problem with the displays being themed in different areas. I prefer it as a photographer as it makes for better pictures.

 

Why are there a lack of 'post war' events? Do organisers feel there isn't the interest amongst the paying public in later 20th century history? Is it the WW2 era that pulls the crowds? I don't know, I've only been in the MV movement for 18 months, but so far, I haven't found any 'them and us' attitude. Perhaps we're all just a little more laid back up North!

 

Steve

[Jack]

I am more than happy to let this thread run but I do expect due respect to be shown to all members from all members no matter what any of us are passionate about.

[Great War truck]

Quite right (now someone else work out what i am agreeing to!). It seems that we were more pleasant to each other when we were talking about SS re-enactors staging executions.

 

Love and hugs (but not in a dangling canvas bucket way) to all.

 

Tim (too)

 

PS. i must just state that as area secretary of the North Oxon and Cotswolds MVT i would be thrilled and delighted to stand down to anybody whatsoever with whatever vehicle they owned, if anybody else would volunteer to do the job. AGM at the end of this Month. Will i still have the same job this time next Month? I bet i will.

[FV601 (R.I.P.)]

PS. i must just state that as area secretary of the North Oxon and Cotswolds MVT i would be thrilled and delighted to stand down to anybody whatsoever with whatever vehicle they owned, if anybody else would volunteer to do the job. AGM at the end of this Month. Will i still have the same job this time next Month? I bet i will.

 

You know what they say Tim

 

Its a thankless task but somebody's got to do it :evil:

[ArtistsRifles]

PS. i must just state that as area secretary of the North Oxon and Cotswolds MVT i would be thrilled and delighted to stand down to anybody whatsoever with whatever vehicle they owned, if anybody else would volunteer to do the job. AGM at the end of this Month. Will i still have the same job this time next Month? I bet i will.

 

 

It's quite simple Tim - keep your ears open at the AGM and next time they say "volunteers one pace forward" - make sure you take one pace BACKWARDS with the rest of them!!!! :-) :-) :-)

[Dougiebarder]

Maybe one way to get around the problem, is to"WALT" up your post war vehicle to look like the wartime one it "evolved" from wartime one-you'd get invited that way :evil:

[ArtistsRifles]

Maybe one way to get around the problem, is to"WALT" up your post war vehicle to look like the wartime one it "evolved" from wartime one-you'd get invited that way :evil:

 

 

Well - the theory is good........ Biut somehow I can't see a Stalwart looking anything like a DUKW!!! :-) :-) :-)

[M5Clive]

Its interesting to see that the rift between some of the WWII vehicle owners and Post war vehicle collectors is never far from the surface and surprisingly enough, has always been that way during the many years I have been associated with the MVT.

 

I think the comment that got this rather heated discussion going was from a ferret and fox owner (amongst many other vehicles he lists as owning) saying the following

"Yet another MVT bash where the postwar owners aren't catered for?? lets play spot the postwar vehicle on the MVT Xmas card this year, that won't take long"

 

Negative comments like this aimed solely at the organisers of WWII related events make me chuckle more than anything else, because you just can't take them very seriously! Incidentally, I don't have anything to do with the design of the MVT christmas cards, but I did a couple of them. That said, if I owned a humber pig or a CVRT I would probably be a bit peeved that there wasn't any option of a PW vehicle card also. But, if it bothered me enough I think I would raise the issue at Council of Management level where the people that make the decisions hear what the grass-roots members have to say, rather than linking your complain to the publicity of an event which has no conection with christmas cards whatsoever!

 

To those select few (and looking back at the posting over this issue, it really is a tiny minority of PW vehicle owners) who have got pretty steamed-up over OPERATION BOLERO not being open to PW vehicles, I have one pertenant question to ask, which was mentioned to me last night during a phone conversation with a founding member of the MVT who was still in stitches from what he had read on this forum.

 

If the event had been open to all vehicles or all eras, would you have honestly made the effort to attend the three day event anyway and taken a day out of the working week to support it?? I think most people reading this will form their own conclusions and know the truthful answer, immaterial of whatever reply is subsequently forthcoming.

 

Those of you who cannot see that a 65th Anniversary commemorative event, organised to mark the occasion of the first United States Army Air Corp servicemen being stationed in East Anglia is not suitable for Land Rovers, Humber pigs, Bedford RL's & TK's and ferrets needs to read-up a little more on history. What possible relevence would the attendence of these vehicles have upon a 1942 period convoy event, where most people in addition to bringing their vehicles also make the effort to look the part themselves.

 

Would you honestly feel comfortable joining in that convoy with a PW vehicle, knowing that the entire group of people you were with, would all be saying to me as organisers, "What the hell is that ruddy PW whatever doing here - That not relevent to this event!"

 

Enough said really!

 

Clive D Stevens

[FV601 (R.I.P.)]

Its interesting to see that the rift between some of the WWII vehicle owners and Post war vehicle collectors is never far from the surface and surprisingly enough, has always been that way during the many years I have been associated with the MVT.

 

 

It is good to know that you have at least noticed it being there Clive as well as admitting that it has been around that long. Tends to lean towards there being some credibilty in what is being said here from PW owners.

 

I think the comment that got this rather heated discussion going was from a ferret and fox owner (amongst many other vehicles he lists as owning) saying the following

"Yet another MVT bash where the postwar owners aren't catered for?? lets play spot the postwar vehicle on the MVT Xmas card this year, that won't take long"

 

Negative comments like this aimed solely at the organisers of WWII related events make me chuckle more than anything else, because you just can't take them very seriously!

 

Whilst the comment is perhaps a negative one in your eyes it is the feelings of more than just a few and because they are'nt taken very seriously only propogate the discord further.

 

I have one pertenant question to ask, which was mentioned to me last night during a phone conversation with a founding member of the MVT who was still in stitches from what he had read on this forum.

 

If the event had been open to all vehicles or all eras, would you have honestly made the effort to attend the three day event anyway and taken a day out of the working week to support it?? I think most people reading this will form their own conclusions and know the truthful answer, immaterial of whatever reply is subsequently forthcoming.

 

 

 

It is saddening to know that a founding member of a club that proports to encompass ALL MV's should see a genuine grievance as comical, but considering this has been brought to the attention of the management commitee on more than several occasions in e-mails does'nt really come as a surprise.

 

In regards to whether people would have attended, in some respects that is a moot point as the opportunity was not given in this particular instance.

 

In regards to the commitment of organising and running a show open to all era's. I can only draw on my own experiences of doing just that. With the organisation taking some 8-12 weeks prior to the event, the actual event weekend stretching into a 4 day one for those involved in set up and breakdown and finally debrief and date setting for a follow on event next year taking some 2 days.

 

Commited? I would like to think my actions show that I was and are to any such event.

 

Those of you who cannot see that a 65th Anniversary commemorative event, organised to mark the occasion of the first United States Army Air Corp servicemen being stationed in East Anglia is not suitable for Land Rovers, Humber pigs, Bedford RL's & TK's and ferrets needs to read-up a little more on history. What possible relevence would the attendence of these vehicles have upon a 1942 period convoy event, where most people in addition to bringing their vehicles also make the effort to look the part themselves.

 

Would you honestly feel comfortable joining in that convoy with a PW vehicle, knowing that the entire group of people you were with, would all be saying to me as organisers, "What the hell is that ruddy PW whatever doing here - That not relevent to this event!"

 

 

I refer you to my earlier post regarding recognising that there are events where PW vehicles would be entirely out of place, once again I ask, why so many?

 

I would ask however, why any PW vehicles that wished to attend could not be placed in a static setting thereby leaving the WW2 vehicles and owners to do their convoy bit?

 

In regards to vehicle owners taking the time and looking the part, there are as many in the PW camp that do pretty much the same so WW2 does'nt have the monopoly on that particular trait :wink:

 

I do respect your opinion on this matter Clive but I hasten to add that I am not entirely in agreement with it else I would not be posting to this particular thread.

 

Is there a ready solution? I doubt it as you have already stated this gap has been around a long time.

 

Hell mate I don't know, I imagine it will just go on ad infinitum until the "Old School" mentality fades into obscurity.

 

Nuff said

[Marmite!!]

 

I think the comment that got this rather heated discussion going was from a ferret and fox owner (amongst many other vehicles he lists as owning) saying the following

"Yet another MVT bash where the postwar owners aren't catered for?? lets play spot the postwar vehicle on the MVT Xmas card this year, that won't take long"

 

 

Enough said really!

 

Clive D Stevens

 

 

Yes that was me that made that comment but it was Jack who thought there was a need to have this debate that's why he split the original thread, I can't take credit for the title of this thread, that was Jack's..

 

The problem is not that you are holding an event to cover a certain period it's that it's under the MVT Banner & as such in my view should be open to all members, I could be wrong but are you insuring the event under MVT Cover? if so this is paid for by all Members..

 

At last someone from the MVT (Suffolk Area Secretary that admits there is friction between WW2 & Postwar Mv owners.. Thank you.. this has always been denied in the past

 

Its interesting to see that the rift between some of the WWII vehicle owners and Post war vehicle collectors is never )far from the surface and surprisingly enough, has always been that way during the many years I have been associated with the MVT.

 

We have made the National MVT aware of our views in the past but until Preston took over we never got answers, that has changed & Preston is always very quick to answer emails..

[ArtistsRifles]

Its interesting to see that the rift between some of the WWII vehicle owners and Post war vehicle collectors is never far from the surface and surprisingly enough, has always been that way during the many years I have been associated with the MVT.

 

Perhaps then the discussion here should focus on how we can heal that rift - preferably as quckly as possible????

 

The way things are going in the nanny state that is 21st century Britain its not hard to see our vehicles being the subject of yet another Gov't banning order - probabky because a certain group will say they fell threatened by them -and a divided movement is a weak movement!!

 

I don't think I can comment on how to heal the rift as I've only been involved in the actual MV scene less than a year - but there are enough members here with enough years in and who are respected by all who maybe can???

 

If the event had been open to all vehicles or all eras, would you have honestly made the effort to attend the three day event anyway and taken a day out of the working week to support it?? I think most people reading this will form their own conclusions and know the truthful answer, immaterial of whatever reply is subsequently forthcoming.

 

Truthful answer is - it would depend on what the event is going to offer me!! for a three day event - if there to were be sufficient people selling parts etc and with organized events like the arena at Beltring or a cruise around the country side then yes, I'd take a day off work to attend. If were a case of turn up on Friday and basically sit there just socialising (no offence intended here) for three days then probably you'd be right an the answer would be no. That said - the yes answer would also depend on money being available for fuel and the distance to event. Bear in mind that motorways and Stalwarts do not mix!! I have to take the winding A roads where possible because of the transmission and ths directly impacts journey times and costs. To illustrate - when I bought her the journey home from East Sussex to Dagenham took around 4 hours to cover approx. 65 miles.

 

Those of you who cannot see that a 65th Anniversary commemorative event, organised to mark the occasion of the first United States Army Air Corp servicemen being stationed in East Anglia is not suitable for Land Rovers, Humber pigs, Bedford RL's & TK's and ferrets needs to read-up a little more on history. What possible relevence would the attendence of these vehicles have upon a 1942 period convoy event, where most people in addition to bringing their vehicles also make the effort to look the part themselves.

 

Would you honestly feel comfortable joining in that convoy with a PW vehicle, knowing that the entire group of people you were with, would all be saying to me as organisers, "What the hell is that ruddy PW whatever doing here - That not relevent to this event!"

 

This is a good, valid point in respect of the event in question being a period event. But I thought the original point being made was not so much about this specific event but rather the number of period events that are open to WW2 era vehicles only??? If I'm wrong then my apologies but I did believe that the number of events, rather than specific events, was the issue under debate originally???

 

A question springs from this though Clive - or indeed anybody - if I had a WW2 era vehicle, would organisers of period specific events be happy that i turned up dresed as I would if driving the Stalwart??

I wore the Queens uniform a quarter of a century ago, I carried and used the weapons appropriate at the time and I've no desire to let that genie out of the bottle again so what ever MV I drive - it will never be in uniform of any sort.

How would that sit with the organizers???

[Enigma]

ArtistRifles

I can imagine you don't want to wear a uniform.

Here in Holland for WW2 parades a uniform is desired.

Those who don't want that are asked to wear green or khaki.

So a red sweater isn't very wellcome.

 

Maybe dark clothing would be OK for you?

Just my 2 cents.

 

My passion is WW2 but I don't look down on post war vehicles. Some of them are rarer and more expensive (or more good looking) than WW2 stuff.

There is 1 vehicle I really don't like (won't mention it here).

BUT, if someone has 1 of those I give him due respect cause HE or SHE likes it.

[ArtistsRifles]

ArtistRifles

I can imagine you don't want to wear a uniform.

Here in Holland for WW2 parades a uniform is desired.

Those who don't want that are asked to wear green or khaki.

So a red sweater isn't very wellcome.

 

Maybe dark clothing would be OK for you?

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

Usually is my friend - black all over - boots, combat style trousers and a regimental polo shirt.

The colour seems appropriate given a combination of many things not least of which is the sense of humour.. :-) :-) :-)

[Bodge Deep]

Perhaps many postwar vehicles lack the romance that is associated with their WWII counterparts? Romance in terms of peoples emotional reaction/ attraction to them. As a WWII vehicle owner I have experienced this when MOPs will march right past a mint PW/modern vehicle to ogle my Dodge (not mint by any means!) much to the annoyance of the PW vehicle owner (possibly one of the reasons for the division). But because they (the MOP) remember riding in one as a kid or driving one in service or seeing them during the war (an extremely emotive period in anyones memory who lived through it) they become part and parcel of the experience and engrained in their memory as much as powdered egg or the sound of Glenn Miller.

 

I think that striving for authenticity is a good thing and people should be a little less precious about "I'm not invited to this party"

It's no different from trawling ebay for that hard to find part for your vehicle for it to look right...after all you could put BMW headlights on your champ but it would look wrong... event organisers are doing the same thing... trying to make the event look as authentic as possible not just "kind of right".

If you're not invited to go...throw your own party... have a great time!

I wouldn't take the dodge to a PW vehicle show (although it was in service in Norway 'till the 80's!). Just as I wouldn't take the Dodge to a First World War event/re-enactment as it would be utterly out of place & look wrong. So why is, as Clive said, acceptable for a post war vehicle, to get amongst jimmys, jeeps & dodges at a wartime event and be the cause of a rumpus just 'cause its military?

 

If the event is just a MV show, great, allcomers turn up & enjoy the variety and diversity of vehicles from all eras.

If it's a 40's event... 40's vehicles only simple as that :wink:

[FV601 (R.I.P.)]

If the event is just a MV show, great, allcomers turn up & enjoy the variety and diversity of vehicles from all eras.

If it's a 40's event... 40's vehicles only simple as that

 

Once again this particular point has been covered in so much that it is recognised that there are events where PW vehicles would be out of place in the diorama being portrayed. But again I ask why cannot an area be set aside for those owners of PW vehicles who would wish to attend?

 

And lets be perfectly honest here how many Hodgkiss Jeeps or post war Dodges or Jimmy's for that matter pass themselves off as being WW2?

 

Another point would be that if you are trying to be historically correct especially in the context of say. the redball express, why then are there no negro drivers of the trucks employed? Not only that why are'nt all the vehicles involved in such carrying the markings showing they are from the same division/battallion/company. etc.?

 

And yes I know I am appearing to be a little pedantic in citing such but it is those of you who are citing why we as PW owners should'nt be at such a show who are doing the same.

 

I do not condemn your choice in vehicle or your desire to display it in as authentic a manner as possible, I do however take umbrage that I am being excluded from attending shows I would gladly attend be it for the choice in vehicle I have made.

 

As for the "romantic" aspect, I too have had MOP's speak long and knowledgably about how they used to drive a vehicle like mine in the desert campaign (refering to the Saladin here) only to find out that it never saw that campaign due to its not being made until much later. This actually includes Vet's as well so it would appear that they can make mistakes as well. In fact there are more and more MOP's remembering their PW years of National service or time in the forces who come up to us at shows and say that they remember driving an RL, saw service with 4 RTR and drove Saladin's, Were part of a recce troop driving Ferrets in Cyprus on UN duties.

 

Biased? I dont think I am as I was called upon to judge a local IMPS event earlier this year and with the exception of the Armour award which had to go to a PW vehicle as it was the only one attending, the majority of awards went to WW2 vehicles. As an aside though best in show did go to a PW vehicle but that was not my decision. :wink:

 

 

[79x100]

Fascinating debate chaps. My only contact with the MVT is via "Windscreen" so the undercurrents are not something that I've been aware of.

 

Is there no pecking order within PW ? Do the coil-sprung Landy boys not feel a bit in the shadow of perfect Series 1s ? Isn't it rather in the nature of clubs involved with old or classic things that older is often regarded as better ?

 

Personally, I'd like to see lots of events around 1930s British Army vehicles. Lots of SD, positively no Battledress and DEFINITELY no Yanks :evil:

 

 

[John Pearson]

I was going to add my two pennyworth (two cents if you prefer) a couple of days ago but thought better of it. As this is still a live issue, I am again drawn to put finger to keyboard.

Most contributers seem to think that a someone is either a wartime or post war person: I am both and am struggling to find out why this issue is exercising so many people and wonder if I can unpick it a bit?

 

Firstly, do WW2 vehicle owners really think that the public are always more interested in their vehicles than post war? Do you really think Joe Public will walk past a Centurion tank to see the sixth jimmy or seventeenth jeep? Come on, get real! The people who pay the other half of our hobby costs (the public!) go to see varied and interesting Military Vehicles of all periods! Are show organisers stupid? Why have a show for lots of identical vehicles that happen to have been made 1939 to 1945 and keep away lots of the things that the public want to see.

 

Secondly I do not take any of my vehicles to swimming galas or horse of the year shows because they don't fit. Why would anyone want to take a 1960's vehicle to a forties event at eg a steam railway? There could be some slight reason to go the other way: jeeps were in use up to the 60's I believe for example but if the event is supposed to show a particular period then stay away if your vehicle(s) don't fit.

 

Thirdly, very obviously, veterans are getting older. When I started in 1984, First World War men were frequent visitors and WW2 men were running companies. Now to all intents and purposes, WW1 men have faded away and WW2 men (and women of course) are now between 80 and about 95. Suez veterans are about 70, Vietnam veterans push 60 and Falklands veterans pushing 50. The Military vehicles exhibited should reflect the veterans attending: there would be little point restricting a show to Zulu War horse drawn waggons only: there would be no one to give that veterans perspective and it is only the veterans perspective that makes a particular period come to life.

 

Fourthly: When Peter Gray started, jeeps had only been out of service 10 or 15 years and could be picked up in original paint. Diamond T's, Hippo's etc were still in service. No great deal of restoration was required. They chose WW2 vehicles because they were cheap and available. That has changed with the passage of time. My Saracen is 54 years old this year. Which restoration was more difficult at the time it was done? Which deserved to be exhibited most? You chose.

 

Fifthly:I am a member of the MVT. I would be very annoyed if my subscription money was used to pay for things I am excluded from unless it was fairly organised and there were an equal number of events that the 'other side' were excluded from: fairness is the name of the game but on the whole, it seems to me that the MVT (and IMPS) put on MILITARY VEHICLE events and it is other event organisers (who I do not subscribe to) who organise period specific events. If I am not paying, I can't complain if it doesn't suit me. I just don't go.

 

Lastly: I do not dress up and will not wear military uniform I am not entitled to so maybe I have a different perspective but for the life of me, I cannot see the important difference between pre 1939, 1939 to 1945 and post 1945 vehicles. Is anyone going to tell me that a DUKW is more interesting than a Stalwart or a Dingo less interesting than a Saladin? A bren gun carrier compared with a FV 432 or a Heavy WW1 Mark V tank and a Comet. My interest is in the mechanical engineering and I will take my vehicles anywhere and talk about them. If organisers dont want any of my armour there, I don't go but I then don't bleat about it.

 

Pre, wartime or post war? It's all the same to me and Joe Public most of the time!

[Bodge Deep]

Secondly I do not take any of my vehicles to swimming galas or horse of the year shows because they don't fit. Why would anyone want to take a 1960's vehicle to a forties event at eg a steam railway? There could be some slight reason to go the other way: jeeps were in use up to the 60's I believe for example but if the event is supposed to show a particular period then stay away if your vehicle(s) don't fit.

 

Exactly

 

 

[Marmite!!]

Secondly I do not take any of my vehicles to swimming galas or horse of the year shows because they don't fit. Why would anyone want to take a 1960's vehicle to a forties event at eg a steam railway? There could be some slight reason to go the other way: jeeps were in use up to the 60's I believe for example but if the event is supposed to show a particular period then stay away if your vehicle(s) don't fit.

 

Exactly

 

 

 

& why wouldn't we? we have attended many non-military events this year & at some of these we got a better response from the public than we do at a MV Show, we even did an event at Tilbury Power Station this year.. it's far better having the vehicles out on the road than sitting there being used as a gate guards..

 

& towing Jeeps to shows, what's that all about?? :wink:

[saracenstump]

just a small point and i know its being picky but the forties decade was 10 years not just 40 to 45 so why do people only think of 40 to 45 when they do a 40s event,as you may know landrovers appeared in 1948?

just being picky i know

[Welbourn]

I once owned a post war truck

 

It’s a shame as I wanted a DUKW

 

It had to suffice, but t’was not my true vice

 

I felt sad and real down on my luck

 

Never fear said a voice

 

We all have a choice

 

Mine is a WW2 truck

 

Now go get your Pig or your Champ

 

And park at the back of the camp….there’s a good lad!

 

[ArtistsRifles]

<snipped for brevity>

Is anyone going to tell me that a DUKW is more interesting than a Stalwart or a Dingo less interesting than a Saladin? A bren gun carrier compared with a FV 432 or a Heavy WW1 Mark V tank and a Comet. My interest is in the mechanical engineering and I will take my vehicles anywhere and talk about them. If organisers dont want any of my armour there, I don't go but I then don't bleat about it.

 

Pre, wartime or post war? It's all the same to me and Joe Public most of the time!

 

Just a thought - would not the public be interested in seeing how things changed over the years?? DUKW beside Stalwart, Bren beside 432 to use Johns examples. Equipment that has a common purpose but has changed - sometimes radically - over time can generate more interest than just seeing equipment of the same era. The differences can make good conversation points for those who've come to see the vehicles....

[andrewroberts.1953]

I have been to events were a chap in his 60's has come over at the trot to climb all over, a ferret, a humber 1 ton cargo, a series 1 landrover, a champ, a bedford rl, etc. The comments from these pw veterans about 39/45 vehicles was less than complimentry. Mose so if a white star is in evidence. But again, that's all to do with the public that come to events.

We all like differant things, for differant reasons. But in general I hope that we all have this dreaded virus because we want to preserve things.

The danger is that we don't preserve the thinks that one day we turn around and find are no longer about.