question Has anyone ever fitted a non-standard (modern) engine to their military vehicle?

[JoelH]

Good Afternoon,

 

Q: Has anyone ever fitted a non-standard (modern) engine to their military vehicle?

 

Many Thanks,

FB

[timbo]

Cue Mr Heliops. He has recent experience with his Ward LaFrance.

 

The problems you will have will not be technical but will be in dealing with the disapproval of certain members of the MV establishment who will frown on such heresy..!

[gritineye]

Depends how you define modern, if 1985 counts then yes I and many others have done so.

[JoelH]

Well, If I was able to get the shell of a ferret (something fit for the scrap man).

 

I would consider trying to modernise it... But how would people suggest?

[griff66]

stick with a b60 cant beat it!

[Stormin]

BMW 6 pot turbo diesel would be my favoured way if I wasn't keeping original. Available from many motors with both auto or manual boxes. Plenty of power and high revving. Not too much in the way of electronics if you get an older one.

[Tony B]

Isuzui 3.1 turbo disiel. Nice free reving, and a bomb proof timing gear.

[Degsy]

Isuzui 3.1 turbo disiel. Nice free reving, and a bomb proof timing gear.

 

You keep recommending this engine Tony but in the trade it's reputation is crap and when it does go wrong the costs involved can be astronomical.

[Tony B]

I know the 3 litre was a pile of poo. The 2.8 is a good solid lump. When I originaly got mine Chertsey were trying out the Perentie, so I asked the opinion of a couple of guys down there. They were gushing over the engine.

[robin craig]

There has been word at work on attempting to repower a CVR(T) that we have with a blown engine.

 

Frankly I have been ambivalent towards the gig as there are so many other things to put our valuable MV time towards that would garner so much more result. Also dont forget we have a J60 ready to go in a test stand that just needs to be run up and proven before install, so why we would sod around with a major engineering project defies me.

 

If I had to execute said silly project, then I would be going for something commercially supportable out here. My first two choices would be something from Kubota or perhaps a Cummins. The Kubota diesels we have in various applications are bulletproof and infact one of the ferries to the island runs on one.

 

R

[AlienFTM]

Whether to fit a "new" engine is about compromise. The Bovington Tiger put a con rod through the last available Maybach 210 first time it started up after renovation and it took years to find a Maybach 230 (the best available alternative) and heavily mod the early model Tiger 1 so that it could run the engine out of a late model Tiger 1 (ISTR the actual lump in question came out of a Tiger 2). And that's with Bovvy's connections.

 

I am sure that throughout its life span, every model of tank (note: as opposed to every individual tank) must have had different model engines fitted, so there must be at least a little strain on people like you people who do this sort of thing on modest resources etc.

 

So once you get over the hang-up of, "Ah but did this individual chassis ever actually have that exact model of engine / gearbox / minor assy / engine deck screws etc?" surely the pain is eased. Certainly as an outsider, I'd rather see a Scorpion running on a diesel engine rather than parked up on bricks for want of a J60.

[John Pearson]

I know someone who put a Jaguar car engine and box in a Saracen (it was garbage I believe!) but I wholehearted approved because I got the B80 which was modified slightly so as to replace a blown Saladin engine.

Not quite the same but I am running my Dingo on the SU carb off my last Montego. The original would not start from cold, had flat spots and stuck open sometimes. It did about 10 miles to the gallon if you could get it to run that long. With Montego carb it starts straight away, has more power and gives about 14 to the gallon. Original carb is carefully wrapped up and will accompany Dingo if I ever sell it, new owner can do as he likes but I will suggest keeping the SU on it so long as it remains roadworthy!

[Marmite!!]

Well, If I was able to get the shell of a ferret (something fit for the scrap man).

 

I would consider trying to modernise it... But how would people suggest?

Why would you want to get rid of the B60 ??

[Sean N]

I've done a fair few engine conversions in the past, for customers and privately (Perkins 6.247 into Austin K9, Bedford 330 turbo into Austin K9, BMC 6/98 into Morris MRA1, Leyland O.400 into Bedford RL, Bedford 330 into Bedford RL, various engines into Landrovers, etc.).

 

To my mind there are a number of points to consider:

 

1. How bothered about originality are you?

 

2. What are you trying to achieve with the conversion (power, speed, reliability, economy, spares availability, replace an unobtainable original engine, etc.)?

 

3. What's your budget?

 

4. What engine can you fit on your budget that'll achieve what you want?

 

5. If your object is economy, how long will it take to recoup the conversion cost particularly if you're using an expensive engine or paying someone to do the job?

 

6. Will your chosen engine fit in the hole (length, width, height, ancillary positions, crank centreline, etc.)?

 

7. Will your chosen engine have any compatibility issues (maximum revs / gearing, suitable torque curve, 12V vs 24V, air vs vacuum, etc.)?

 

8. Are there any foreseeable issues with ancillaries (compatibility, different parts needed, availability, fit, routing of plumbing and electrics, etc.)?

 

9. Will you have to change anything else to suit the conversion (springs, brakes, transmission etc.)?

 

9. Do you have the time and resources to do it (if you're doing it yourself) or the money (if you're paying someone).

 

I'm sure there are a few things I've forgotten, but if you're happy with your answers to these questions, go for it!

 

Doing the work is straightforward enough if you're sensible, and there are plenty of people to ask questions of thanks to HMVF and other forums. Don't forget that mounting the engine is a relatively small part of the job; what'll take the time is doing the plumbing and ancillaries.

 

I always try to simplify the job as much as possible; for example, make sure you get all the bits you'll need with the engine (particularly on modern engines with management systems and so on) and use the gearbox that came with the engine (it's usually easier to sort out gearshifts, propshafts and so on rather than making an engine fit a box, though that's not always the case).

 

Hope this helps.

[Stormin]

Why would you want to get rid of the B60 ??

 

He says Ferret shell, so we are assuming it comes without engine and gearbox. A reasonable reason to use a more modern engine and transmission if the original isn't there to start with.

[stal108]

Yes were on our fourth one..

stolly cummins 180bhp diesel

saracen jaguar 4.2 auto

ferret landrover 300 tdi auto near done

saladin bedford 500 auto

 

I also talked an owner of a leyland hippo now cummins power,,,,,!! (phil)

 

There is something to be said for original but if any petrol motor today would be a diesel as the ones we have done, The saracen was a project to see if it were possible.

[stal108]

The ferret

we got a complete running discovery tdi took engine and box out, The ferret had a gearbox problem . So when it came out it was an easy choice. the main mod is the props to the transfer box have been swoped front to rear giving more room for the engine and box ,The original tranfser has been mashined and a bearing fitted to the front. a small prop joins both, 300tdi auto ferret

B60 125bhp ,300tdi 122bhp lets forget torque as the diesel if far more everywhere .rpm is near as dam it the same. exept the tdi wont miss and pop.

The plus point is all you have to do is steer,,,,, and fuel will be near 35% better if offroad it could run on red and that would be even cheaper to run.

[Big Al]

The ferret

we got a complete running discovery tdi took engine and box out, The ferret had a gearbox problem . So when it came out it was an easy choice. the main mod is the props to the transfer box have been swoped front to rear giving more room for the engine and box ,The original tranfser has been mashined and a bearing fitted to the front. a small prop joins both, 300tdi auto ferret

B60 125bhp ,300tdi 122bhp lets forget torque as the diesel if far more everywhere .rpm is near as dam it the same. exept the tdi wont miss and pop.

The plus point is all you have to do is steer,,,,, and fuel will be near 35% better if offroad it could run on red and that would be even cheaper to run.

Was it you who is driving a civ 90 pickup today by brintons park about 4? I did put my hand up! Ferret sounds intresting did alvis desial ferrets for export? They did sarcen and saladin Bovington has one of the saladins in the running fleet.

 

FB

You thinking of the ferret thats in the coach park that was in the arena?

Al

[andym]

Has anyone ever fitted a non-standard (modern) engine to their military vehicle?

 

To be fair, that's exactly what's been done to the FV432 to make the Bulldog, or the Diesel CVR(T)s before them!

 

Andy

[Phil P]

Yes I fitted a 1990 Cummins 6B non turbo with Turner Spicer gearbox into my 1944 Leyland Hippo in 2004. The engine and box cost me £700-00 delivered and had only done 60,000 miles. It came out of the council snowplow. I did the conversion on my own. The installation was designed on my CAD at home. The mountings were designed to fit and Cummins supplied me with a set of installation drawings for my engine. Everything was made off the drawings and it went in and fitted first time. From lifting it off the engine trolley to it bolted in took 20 minutes. All the plumbing and electrics hooked up without a problem. From the outside it looks original. Biggest headache was using the original exhauster for the brakes but that was overcome by mounting it on top of the Cummins back to front (it runs anti clockwise on the Leyland engine) and belt driving it using a jack shaft with a pulley ratio to ensure it didn't go over 800 RPM as original. It runs without a fan on the original rad and never gets a sweat on, not even climbing the hill out of Dover. First road test was 30 miles. No problems encountered so the next run was a round trip to Normandy. 1200 miles without a hitch at 16MPG instead of 11!!. It will top 50MPH. Somewhat better than the original 32 but I keep it a steady 40/45 on the motorway. There's some big propshafts whistling round underneath plus worm axles. It isn't frightened of hills anymore and remember it is a non-turbo 130BHP @2800RPM 6B. It will rev to 3100. The original engine was 101BHP at 1700RPM. It also has a pump built in to supply my power steering. That system came off a Dodge skip wagon. I've got an Allison 7 speed auto box that bolts up to the 6B but that would take the fun out of driving it......... Wouldn't it?

 

Am I worried about upsetting purists? Not when I can cruise with the Jimmy's! If you are going to re engine anything go Cummins. There's plenty around. They're light, gobs of power and rev. You can get mods to the pump rack from the States to boost the power if you're not happy plus bigger turbos and intercoolers and big valve heads etc.

 

Apparently a good swap for the Dodge WC series is the Cummins 4BT. Fitted with an O/Drive gearbox it's as fast as with the stock engine and the same weight. The 6B or 6BT will go into a Jimmy without too much hassle but I have done a bit of measuring and the Mercedes Turbo Sprinter with box would be a nice conversion.

 

The latest version of the Cummins 5.9 litre with a few mods fitted in a dragster has recentley gone under 8 seconds for the 1/4 mile. I wonder what it would do with 11 tons to move? Hmmm...

 

Phil.

[stal108]

CUMMINS motto "Almost Perfect"

[Phil P]

If you look at the Cummins badge which is a letter 'C' with Cummins written across it you will see that the top of the 'S' is just off the edge of the large 'C'. That is because as it says in their motto it is 'Almost perfect'.

 

Another advertising gimmic that is not very well known (Or perhaps it is?) is His Masters Voice. Nipper the dog on the HMV badge was added after the picture of the record player was taken. the original 'cut and paste' but if you look carefully the record player is not on a table but actually on the lid of a coffin. The dog can still hear 'his masters voice' perfectly reproduced. How clever is that?

 

Sorry to go off subject but I am renowned for it!

 

Phil. Bsc Trivia (Hons)

[steveo578]

If I remember correctly the Bovington A11 Matilda -the mobile one -ex OTA - has/had a Rover 3.5litre (a wedgie?) motor in place of the ford V8.

[Big Al]

If I remember correctly the Bovington A11 Matilda -the mobile one -ex OTA - has/had a Rover 3.5litre (a wedgie?) motor in place of the ford V8.

Steve yes you are correct I think its a auto box also.

Al

[JoelH]

FB

You thinking of the ferret thats in the coach park that was in the arena?

Al

Hey Al,

It wasn't one of the museum vehicles I had seen. Interesting fact- we just received a new "Big Wheel" ferret today - nothing inside.

 

I would only want to use the ferret shell - I would look to put a Diesel engine into it with an automatic box. Convert the brakes to air-brakes. I would also like to add some more modern "tech" to it... Very similar to the museums Saladin (as mentioned earlier in this conversation).