Sean N Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 What are all of the small pipes all over the engine? Steve The small pipes all appear to relate to the intake - Ki-Gass starter or something along those lines, perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 The sump can not be welded? As it is normally a good pure quality aluminium. I don't know about Thornycroft, but nobody (as far as I know) has ever managed to weld the alloy that White and Poppe used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 The small pipes all appear to relate to the intake - Ki-Gass starter or something along those lines, perhaps? I would normally have thought the same, but there are two to the plate betwixt the manifold and carb, and that looks a lot like the intake heater on Ben's new engine. So they might be oil pipes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I have only ever seen them in bronze on this side of the world. so ours will be too. You can see in Hedd's photos of the recovery that the gearlever quadrant was missing, as were the brasses from the pump itself. I think the bronze thieves had got there beforehand! Steve It is interesting to note these small differences in parts. We can only assume ( without the early parts manuals) that there are two sets of casting materials. Could the export market been a cheaper/ plainer version? Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I don't know about Thornycroft, but nobody (as far as I know) has ever managed to weld the alloy that White and Poppe used. This is the corroded hose stub on the water manifold of a 1913 White and Poppe Engine. I cut the stub off and replaced it with a new turned part. I had it welded on by a 'professional welder' and although the welding looks superficially O.K. it was actually hideous. I always believed that the alloy that W & P used had a high magnesium content and that is why the castings were always painted silver to help protect the reactive surface. The flanges were also cracked and leaked despite the welding, so a mechanical solution was employed. The spigots were bored and 'top hat' sleeves pressed and Loctited in place. Today was a day of great satisfaction as the engine was bone dry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I have had a nice day in the workshop today. First job was to make up another pattern for Father to take to the foundry. This one is for the front cover for the differential and was a simple turning job from a blank laid up form MDF slices. Not difficult but my dust extractor failed on me so that got a clean and service as well. That one has now had a coat of Bondaprime and will get rubbed down and finished tomorrow. The next task was to progress the gear change mechanism. Reverse is through 1st gear so there is a catch and trigger on the lever to prevent it from being accidentally engaged. This had had a hard life, was bent and well rusted. Some persistence with the blowtorch and a punch managed to extract the split pin. Wire and nylon brushes cleaned the bits up and I took the opportunity to take out the wear in the pivot pin holes by enlarging them with a 13/32" drill. A wire brush in the pistol drill soon sorted the handle. I turned up some new pivot pins so only the centring springs remain. These are interesting in that they are leaf springs, mounted either side and made from 22swg spring steel. This is proving very hard to get and the best price we have had is £67- plus £15- postage for 0.3m x 1m. However, one of my work colleagues had a brainwave and has suggested that I use a panel saw! Screwfix is next door to work so I have picked up a £2-99 saw with the intention of cutting it up. It is just the right thickness so I will have a go at that shortly. I shall find out how well it anneals! Pattern painting tomorrow and then the centring springs. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Screwfix is next door to work so I have picked up a £2-99 saw with the intention of cutting it up. It is just the right thickness so I will have a go at that shortly. I shall find out how well it anneals! Why would you anneal it? I would strongly recommend not heating thin spring steel, it gets its properties from cold rolling. Machine it with carbide tooling and cold-form it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 The plan was to anneal it so I could shear it, drill it and bend it. What I propose doing now is to cut the leaves out with a disc cutter and then experiment with the off cuts to see if I can bend them without fracture. Not sure how I will drill them now though! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andypugh Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 The plan was to anneal it so I could shear it, drill it and bend it. What I propose doing now is to cut the leaves out with a disc cutter and then experiment with the off cuts to see if I can bend them without fracture. Not sure how I will drill them now though! As far as I recall from when spring steels were my job, spring steel strip is supplied with enough ductility to do a full 180 bend round a radius of 4x (maybe 3x) the strip thickness. You should be able to drill it with a solid-carbide drill, and quite possibly with a good HSS-Co one. (I drill full-HSS mechanical hacksaw blades with solid-carbide drills, we have a stock of cheap ones that are too long for the mechanical hacksaw) Failing that, a simple punch tool (as in a block of gauge-plate with a hole drilled through it and saw-cut) and a bit of HSS round rod should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.303fan Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Silver steel makes good punches, just a tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Another manufacturing challenge! If I make up a guide tool to keep the punch and die aligned, I could use the hydraulic press to push the punch through. Hardened silver steel would be the way I should go. (Thanks for the suggestion). A bit more pondering time needed, I think. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Another manufacturing challenge! If I make up a guide tool to keep the punch and die aligned, I could use the hydraulic press to push the punch through. Hardened silver steel would be the way I should go. (Thanks for the suggestion). A bit more pondering time needed, I think. Steve Andy's suggestion of (I assume) a one-piece die block sounds good: drill the punch hole straight through then slot the side of the block (wide enough to accommodate your piece of spring steel and deep enough to get the hole in the right position) position spring, drop punch into hole, apply suitable force: sorted! I have a"Nu-cleve" bench punch somewhere, but it only does small holes and rivet setting so wouldn't be up to the job. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Thanks Chris. I will have a go at it when I get back home. In the mean time, I have found this picture of the inside of the top tank of a Thorny owned by the Hampshire County Council Museums Service. As you can see, there is a short overflow pipe running from the outlet fitting up to the filler cap. As our plan is to assemble and fit the radiator the next time we are all together, this part needed making so I set to this afternoon to do it. Step one was to get out my home-made 1/2" tube bender. That worked well so step two was to swage out the tube end. I turned up a brass nut and we were away. One more piece ticked off. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fesm_ndt Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Was the corrosion more aggressive in this area on the old tank? If so I would recommend coating it, the pipe that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 It wasn't noticeably worse in this area. I suspect that the huge amount of copper and brass in the rest of the rad will have most galvanic effect and that this pipe is pretty insignificant. All of the tanks I have seen are generally pitted but extremely wasted just above the tube plate. Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 The effort and ingenuity that is going in to this project makes me sick - of my own abilities !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Don't be sick! Enjoy what you can do. I am certain that you could do it as well if you wanted to enough. Let's face it, we didn't know how to do anything until we tried and then asked our friends here and around the country for help and guidance. A job like this is like eating an elephant. You do it one mouthful at a time! As long as you get pleasure out of it then nothing else matters. Enjoy! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I have finally sorted the centring springs! My trip to Screwfix produced two saws as the reason they were so cheap was that they were not very big! First job was to clean up the original spring assemblies in order to salvage the clamp plates. An hour or two with the disc cutter soon saw the leaves roughed out. To bend them, I made up a press tool from a block of wood and then played with various pieces of bar and offcuts of saw to get the radius right. Then it was the moment of truth with a real leaf! I was amazed at how far I could bend them without snapping. I was just thinking about making up a punch and die when one of our salesmen came in with this. He had been clearing out his father's garage and wondered whether I would like it. Fantastic! A hand punch with different sized dies! It made short work of the 3/16" holes although they were very hard on my hands. So much so, in fact that I tried drilling the 1/4" holes with a HSS bit. This was successful but I had to sharpen it several times per hole for the first spring so I gave up and used the 1/4" punch instead. I think I was pushing my luck to be honest, but it did it in the end. Then it was simply a case of riveting them together. All done and ready for the paint shop! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 How very appropriate. If I'm not mistaken that is a Roper Whitney Junior punch, a copy of the original Whitney Metal Tool punch that goes back well before WW2, possibly to the time of the Thorny. If it wasn't for the plastic covered handle and plastic case it would be quite the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Steve, Do you thing the springs were actually painted or chemically blacked instead? I have used this kit quite successfully although the corrosion resistance isn't perfect. Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 How very appropriate. If I'm not mistaken that is a Roper Whitney Junior punch. Quite right! A number five! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 That's an interesting thought, Barry. It had not occured to me at all! They might have been blacked but I think there was little refinement in the painting process and they would have left the factory covered in paint. I have oil-blacked steel before but the temperature would have upset the spring steel in this case. I have no experience of chemical blacking. How do you do it? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asciidv Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Degrease, into the blacking solution for 10 minutes, wash, then into dewatering oil for 30 minutes. That's it! The finish looks very good, but the corrosion reistance isn't as good as what used to be achieved with vats of boiling caustic cyanide solution. But then again doing it the old way on your cooker top along with the chips wouldn't be too safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I've also used chemical black from a gunsmith. The process is quite easy: make sure that the metal is absolutely clean (blasting just before the treatment works great), apply the solution with a small brush, wait for a few minutes, rinse under the tap, dry with a cloth and spray with WD40 or something similar. In my opinion the WD40 protects better than the chemical black coating... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bill Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 First weekend in Devon for a while and we elected to assemble the radiator and fit it. Step one was to fit the gasket to the bottom tank with a bead of 'red goo' on both sides. Then it was a case of lifting the tank onto the top. Before remembering that the side castings had to go in first! Bolting up was tricky as the flange is very narrow. We had to put a chamfer on each bolt head to get them to sit down. On to the top tank. The job here was to fit the overflow tube inside, something that can't be done from outside. A bead of goo and off we went again. All well. Feet next. We wrapped some rubber around the spigot. It was a very tight fit but some washing up liquid soon sorted that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.