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WW1 Thornycroft restoration


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This is an interesting discussion point! I have always taken the view that I want the vehicle to look used but maintained with factory parts, even if we made them. Certainly, in some cases we make crisper parts than they would have been originally by carving them out of the solid. If a vehicle has been run for an extended period, then some of the bits will be newer than others and will look it. Our vehicles are just extreme examples. As part of my living, I have in the past drawn up fabrications to replace castings for old vehicles for our spares department. The vehicle needing them was only twenty years old but the patterns had gone adrift somewhere and we needed to support it so there is precedent, even in the commercial world.

 

Whilst we were at Statfold with the Dennis a few weeks back, a chap came up to me and said 'That's no good. It's all new!' Well, the body is so I couldn't argue. As long as you are honest about it then I see no problem. Without new parts, there wouldn't be a lorry at all!

 

Of course, there is a certain degree of pride in it as well as we always want to do the best job we can and we can get carried away!

 

Steve

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I find it is interesting that Dan casts his name in some of his Halley parts, for example, showing everyone has their own ideas. Me, I don't care what the choices are, as long as I can read about them ;)

 

trevor

 

Dans use of identifying parts recently made, does have its merits. Reading through the Turin Charter on the restoration of vintage vehicles, the point is made as to being able to distinguish between original and replacement parts. Much of the context however is referring to vehicles of known provenience, where retaining it in a state of originality is the objective.

Further to that becomes vehicles that were changed during their life, whether a re-body took place, as happened with many up market cars, or in the like of commercial vehicles the body style changes with use. Whether it be a flat deck, tanker or bus, early trucks were adaptable.

So Ben's formate of identifying parts produced follows an accepted pattern. To those restoring a Model T so many parts are available off the shelf, how these are identified as, I do not know as I have not rebuilt one.

In our own situations, I'm trying to rebuild the Leylands and Thornycrofts using the spares accumulated, however new parts will be stamped identifying them.

A further problem here arises with the issue of replacement parts that themselves are many decades old and are local copies of parts. We have here some radiator castings that have no Leyland marking on them, and are just different enough in pattern to indicate a different maker. Also made from cast iron rather alloy. Probably made in the 1930's.

The Turin Charter is a interesting topic to read, however not all will agree to the principles involved.

Doug

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Andrew, from up the road, has several completely original vehicles including a couple of veterans. They look a bit scruffy, well… very scruffy, but I have to say when you get up really close you get that very strong sense of originality. Andrew is determined his vehicles will never be painted! All hail originality! Back down to my end of the road, and here we have a couple of bare carcases, bleached, ratted, and, in the case of the 1911/12 Leyland, obviously rare BUT unidentified… until I came along. Not much choice here but to rebuild or scrap. And coming from a long line of farmers who rebuilt, and rebuilt again, these vehicles will acquire a ‘unique’ history. Robert

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I find it is interesting that Dan casts his name in some of his Halley parts,

 

I normally stamp "RCSMC" and the year f manufacture on the parts I make for our Dennis.

Many of the parts I have made are now eligible for HCVS runs in their own right, and the club has rally plaques from 1955.

The history of a vehicle by no means ends when it enters preservation.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Well, yes and no. I'd agree 11 out of 10 for making it, but if you have a look at the original casting it's clear that the radii were never perfect and the edges were never square. The original casting looks to have been spot-faced to a different depth on each side, and you can see the centre hole wasn't really drilled exactly in the centre. This new part is just a bit too good.

 

The crew have put a huge amount of time and effort into this truck ( I think Dennis was up and running about page 100, Thor is now at page 215 ... ) and clearly have decided to leave original pitted surfaces on many components rather than go for perfect factory finishes.

 

The down side is that a perfectly produced well finished new component is just that bit more obvious. Of course you could just throw it in a cement mixer with a bunch of steel scrap for an hour or two, then leave it outside in vinegar for a month, followed by a heavy grit blast, but the balance between new and old has to be managed by the restorers that are actually doing the job.

 

Any comments on your logic for showing / hiding component age, chaps?

 

Any idea if the radiator end stay rod mount is the same / similar?

 

 

but it demonstrates the demise....and subsequent resurrection of the vehicle....does it not

 

I think it OK to manufacture and use new looking components...where needed.

To artificially `age` something in order to `blend in` would be fakery...

 

 

just a thought mind you...

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We showed some pictures of the rear end of the “Radiator to Scuttle tie bar” last month and in particular the bracket which attaches it to the Scuttle. In his posting (No. 2145) dated the 8th May, Gordon asked if the front bracket assembly at the Radiator end was identical – and it is not! The Rear Bracket bolts to the scuttle but the front one is actually a special Eye Bolt which screws into the Radiator Top Tank. We did not have one, or the remains of one to copy and some photographs of the one attached to the very original Thorny at Carlton Colville were of assistance to us together with the picture of it in the original Parts Book, This special Eye Bolt screws directly in to the aluminium of the top tank and is designed to receive the front Jaw End piece on the Tie Bar. We had a piece of bronze of suitable size for the Eye Bolt and deemed in sensible to make it out of bronze rather than steel, bearing in mind its location to delicate aluminium and the hot water surrounding the threaded end it when it is assembled.

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A suitable piece of steel bar was found for the Jaw end and marked out for machining – two main holes were drilled at this first stage – one for the pivot pin which will hold it to the Eye Bolt and the other one at the end of the slot to leave a nice smooth curve there. Other smaller holes were drilled to remove surplus metal before milling. The slot was not fully machined out at this stage as the end will spring open when cut through and the resultant cord is left in situ until nearer the end of manufacture to hold it together. Filing Buttons are used to obtain the radius at the end.

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The work piece was then set up in the four-jaw so that the neck could be machined on the outside and threaded 3/8” Whit on the inside. I await a long-series Tap so that I can go all the way through with the thread as it has only been threaded 1 1/2” deep so far.

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The Filing Buttons were then put back in and the end attacked with a big file to get nicely rounded ends. The retaining cord in the slot then removed with hacksaw and file. Trial assembly then done – looks to be OK.

 

The Core has gone for soldering – we look forward to its return so that the final assembly of the Radiator can take place and we can give the lorry a proper face!

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I take that by filing buttons you mean those discs you have strapped to the part as guide to filing the curve?

 

trevor

 

(who was not thinking about the filing clerk's blouse buttons at all)

 

 

 

That made me laugh! Yes - silver steel rod hardened out with two concentric diameters - the larger outside diameter to be the same as the required finished outside diameter of the work piece but with a smaller round concentric section to fit in the hole in the work piece to hold it in place. Two Buttons required - one to go each side of the work piece. Ideally, the buttons should be able to rotate - but not too loosely in the hole, so as the file goes over the buttons, the hardened silver steel buttons rotates and do not blunt your file!

 

Tony

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Just another silly little part made up and placed to one side until it is required – which hopefully will be very shortly! The Parts Book describes this as the “Blank Flange Plate” which is attached to the inner face of the bottom Radiator Tank and covers a large hole left in the Tank – presumably for wash out purposes, but in this Plate, there is a threaded hole for a Drain Tap. Steve has sketched out the part for the Axminster Division to make – the photo shows the same fitting on the Carlton Colville Thorny

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The Plate was cut from a piece of aluminium plate – the plate was not quite as thick as the sketch specified but it was deemed thick enough to serve the purpose. It was marked out with a compass – sawed roughly to shape and finished off with a file.

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The Plate was set up under the Drill – drilled 15mm and tapped 3/8” BSP. The Tap to thread the hole was held squarely in position by using a centre in the Drill with the point of the centre in the end of the Tap. The Tap was then advanced by hand to cut the thread, with the centre slowly wound down to match the progress of the Tap, ensuring that the thread would remain square. A suitable Brass Drain Tap was found at an Auto Jumble some time ago and was ear marked for this purpose.

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It appears that the original Plate had a raised “boss” under the Drain Tap and we have tried to replicate this on the new plate. A piece of steel bar in the chuck was turned down and threaded to match the thread in the plate – the plate was screwed on to this with a lock nut also put on to further secure it – and the face was turned down to leave the small centre boss.

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Regular readers may recall that the track rod and drag links were in a very poor state with the drag link corroded so far that there was little steel left and the brass brazing material could be seen!

 

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The track rod was repaired and fitted but the drag link was deemed to be too far gone and needed complete replacement. Page 195 shows the new components manufactured by Father in 2015. However, he didn't quite complete the little end and left the spherical boring to me! I have been puzzling over how to do this for some time but in the end realised that if the cup were rotated at an angle of 45° beneath a boring tool held in the mill then a spherical surface would be generated.

 

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This worked quite well and left a very pleasing finish. I already had the ball so I was able to try it in the socket with some 'blue' to see where it touched and adjust my cut to suit.

 

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The I bored the side clearance for the ball.

 

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And drilled and tapped the hole for the greaser.

 

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Next thing to look at was the cup. This was very poorly again and I started by facing it off before trying my lap and grinding past in the actual socket.

 

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As you can see, the surface was just too far gone so I set it up to bore it out in the same way as the first part.

 

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Very pretty!

 

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A quick measurement showed that a shim would be needed between the two components so this was fretted out using that wonderful invention, the sawing wire.

 

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Then it was simply a case of aligning the parts and drilling and boring the bolt holes through.

 

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Rather satisfying!

 

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I had to do a trial fit of course!

 

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The final job is to braze it all together. This was originally done with brass brazing rods which is right on the limit of my heat source (propane). Can anyone offer any suggestions as to how to go about it as I have never done it before! I plan to make a couple of test samples up and see how it goes, to get a feel for it. These are big lumps and are going to take some heating so I would appreciate some comments. Any thoughts on what sort of flux to use, how to hold the assembly and how to feed it? All comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

Steve

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That's interesting and certainly makes sense. How would they have done it? Would they have filled the joint with flux first and how might they have applied the brass? SIlver solder has always been my material of choice and this is a new process to me!

 

Many thanks!

 

Steve :)

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