question Modern Adornments.

[Swill1952xs]

I expect this subject has been raised before; but as I am restoring my Albion and hoping to drive it to local events; I just wondered what your opinions were on fitting lighting to vehicles that only had the bare minimum lighting fitted when they were built.

My Albion was built in 1953 and I cannot find any pictures of the rear lighting arrangements. I have come to the conclusion that the original lighting consisted of a convoy light with a red eye and large diameter reflectors. Looking at other vehicles of a similar age, it would appear that this was all they had too.

I will be fitting rear lighting identical to the early sixties Bedford TK's. My reason for doing this is that had the army fitted updated lighting to meet later standards; this would be the type of lights fitted for that period.

I have the original sidelights to fit to the front, and had thought of fitting 1960's style supplementary lighting to the front to provide flashing indicators. Rather than have orange lenses at the front, I have half decided to fit white lenses with orange bulbs for indicators. I think that if a vehicle such as mine is to be used on the road, bearing in mind that flat out is about 25mph; then it must be adequately lit for modern traffic conditions.

 

And now the question/s

 

Do you think I am right with this line of thought and do you consider modifications of this type to be essential in this day and age.

 

Would it be better if the truck had supplementary lighting fitted, to make it easily removable on arrival at a show ground. Thinking of the smart ars*s who will take delight in telling you that it should have a slotted screw in the side light and not a pozidrive........... you know the ones I mean.

 

Regarding mirrors....... is it acceptable to fit the largest mirror possible that looks right for the age of the vehicle, or would it be better to stick with the little 4" round ones as fitted from new.

 

I've seen a number of vehicles fitted with modern lights and mirrors on this forum and have come to the conclusion that owning a military vehicle is more about using, and in some cases abusing the vehicles, rather than having an immaculate authentic replica of the original specification.

Military vehicles aint like restored classic cars, where everything has to be perfect. If anything, from the comments I've read on here; prfection is frowned upon. Authenticity is the word, which includes dirt, dents and running repairs as they would have had in their service days.

 

I ask these questions, as I've only ever been involved in classic cars in the past, and thats a totally different ball game. :coffee:

[julezee001]

Personally I think the standard military lights from the 50's with the screw on glass lenses are perfectly adequate in modern traffic, although with the low speed an amber beacon in the early evening/night time seems to give oncoming drivers better warning of something worth slowing down for, especially in the Sussex lanes!

 

With mirrors, the 1950's mirrors on the Scammell Explorer were little larger than postage stamps, and whilst I would drive with them in an emergency, they are totally inadequate (though perfectly legal) for modern traffic. What to fit instead is really down to personal choice, but later HGV e.g.Bedford MK/MJ mirrors are pretty good, though I'm sure there are many other good types!

 

Jules

[gritineye]

In my case I wanted to keep the original type rear light setup (now illegal) in place, this I did but also I put a trailer socket out of site under the rear floor and use a pair of trailer lights connected to this and fixed on a bracket in an spare original hole in the rear of the body. So they can be removed if I want.

At the front I have changed to halogen headlight bulbs, there was already a pair of orange indicator lamps fitted in service so I left them as they look OK.

 

As for mirrors, for years I have had the original small mirrors plus lately a pair of series 1 LR round ones, but due to a couple of dodgy moments lately I have decided that safety is better that looks, and have fitted a easily removable 300mm radius very wide angle mirror to nearside and may put one on the off side as well they are quite small so don't look too wrong. They make a huge difference, I think if you drive modern trucks all day you would find it very hard with period mirrors at weekends!

Edited April 2, 2009 by gritineye

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

I have updated my lights on the champ and landrover to Halogen ,not slow vehicles but i felt it needed to be done ,as when the days done i do like to get home a bit sharpish,I think you need to do what ever you feel makes you safer,if you can do it sympathetically then fine.As for other peoples comments about what you have done remind them a smack in the mouth often offends.I like the idea of adding boards that are easilly removed at shows.CW.

[Swill1952xs]

Thank you for your replies and opinions. Sounds as though I'm thinking in the right direction. :thumbsup:

[AlienFTM]

Regarding mirrors....... is it acceptable to fit the largest mirror possible that looks right for the age of the vehicle, or would it be better to stick with the little 4" round ones as fitted from new.

 

I have no problem with larger mirrors. ISTR the Ferret wing mirrors were wide but tiny. We never used them, always fitting CVR(T) or Bedford mirrors. Or were CVR(T) mirrors also small and replaced by Bedford mirrors? It was all so long ago.)

[andreadavide]

cancelled

Edited April 3, 2009 by andreadavide
due to really bad writing, I'll have to rethink it....

[snowtracdave]

My preference is to go with safety every time . If you can find lights & mirrors which look appropriate then so much the better but I'd much rather avoid an incident than worry about the rivet counters - it's your life not theirs which might just be endangered when all is said & done .

[LeeEnfield]

My preference is to go with safety every time . If you can find lights & mirrors which look appropriate then so much the better but I'd much rather avoid an incident than worry about the rivet counters - it's your life not theirs which might just be endangered when all is said & done .

 

 

My thoughts exactly. There is ALWAYS someone at almost every show, who comes up with, ' thats not original',...........to which I agree with, ' I know, its running on 2009 petrol;'.........

The lights on my Bedford, well, they DO light, but having frightened meself coming back from a show last year, unexpectantly late, are going to be sorted/replaced, (well the dynamo is to an alternator, for more 'power')

I think all of us want to (try and) keep our pride and joy as original as poss,.....whatever that is, bearing in mind some of said vehicles may have seen active service, but as Dave and others have already said, to enjoy yourself, its no good being either in a hospital bed or worse....

 

Andy

[Chrisg]

My thoughts exactly. There is ALWAYS someone at almost every show, who comes up with, ' thats not original',...........to which I agree with, ' I know, its running on 2009 petrol;'.........

The lights on my Bedford, well, they DO light, but having frightened meself coming back from a show last year, unexpectantly late, are going to be sorted/replaced, (well the dynamo is to an alternator, for more 'power')

I think all of us want to (try and) keep our pride and joy as original as poss,.....whatever that is, bearing in mind some of said vehicles may have seen active service, but as Dave and others have already said, to enjoy yourself, its no good being either in a hospital bed or worse....

 

Andy

 

The brakes probably aren't original either :-D

'

[LeeEnfield]

The brakes probably aren't original either :-D

'

 

 

brakes, :confused:...........wot's they :cool2::rofl: I'll test them when aproaching yours at belters, Chris.........:whistle:

[Swill1952xs]

Yesterday I decided to discreetly add windscreen washers to my list of modern adornments. This is another modern item which I feel is essential if you are going to drive to and from events. Some of these events get a bit dusty too so it's a useful thing to have.

 

I've actually bought a Trico installation kit. It even comes with a switch and the wiring. I'm hoping to hide the washer bottle behind a panel in the cab, which has a hole in the centre, just right to gain access to the filler.

 

Er............do you. think I'll need rear fog lamps. :-D It will have hazard warning flashers and a beacon fitted.

[Richard Farrant]

Yesterday I decided to discreetly add windscreen washers to my list of modern adornments.

 

I've actually bought a Trico installation kit.

 

Actually, there is no reason why one of these Albions did not have w/washers. The last ones in service would have been the RE Machinery truck, worked on one once. At around the same time we were installing Trico windscreen washer kits to Militant Mk1, under a Modification Instruction.........think they were the hand pump type.

[Swill1952xs]

Actually, there is no reason why one of these Albions did not have w/washers. The last ones in service would have been the RE Machinery truck, worked on one once. At around the same time we were installing Trico windscreen washer kits to Militant Mk1, under a Modification Instruction.........think they were the hand pump type.

 

Cheers Richard.......... i shall feel a lot happier fitting them now. Again I suppose its a sixties type addition, which is about when they started to appear.

Me being the lazy git that I am; I decided to go for electric ones. Coming from Greenmachine surplus. :-D

[gritineye]

 

Er............do you. think I'll need rear fog lamps.

 

Depends on your rings and valve guides....................................

[Jimh]

We drive our steamers on the road a lot and often at night so we really do need some decent lights. The problem is that this has to be balanced against making the vehicle look as right as possible. Personally, I have a loathing of Rubbolite indicators stuck on things which are hopelessly out of period. However, I also have a dislike of having someone ploughing into a lorry because its lights were rubbish.

 

The good news is that modern technology can be a massive help.

 

Here's the front of the Sentinel. Can you spot the indicators?

 

 

We use amber LED bulbs in the sidelights so they become the indicators. Very bright and effective. The sidelights are now incorporated in the headlights which are modern sealed beam. No they aren't period but they don't look hopelessly out of place and anyone who drives steamers any distance will tell you it is very, very, very important to see a long way ahead so at night you really need decent headlights.

 

Ah, but surely with the sidelights so far in the edge of the waggon is very badly lit? If you look at the lower edge of the tipping body (the widest part of the vehicle) there is a little white LED marker light. Again far from period but I think you will agree it hardly sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

We were going to do something similar with the Scammell. The sidelights will become indicators, it will get decent sealed beam headlamps and some LED markers at the widest part of the body should keep it well lit from the front.

 

The LED marker lights cost about £8 each and live for ever.

 

The rear is much more important and there really is very little you can do other than put proper tail lights, brake lights and indicators on them. Usually that means the dreaded Rubbolites or similar. The rear of the Sentinel

 

 

Again, I think you'll probably agree while they are out of period they aren't too noticeable. These LED lights are very bright even in strong sunlight. They give you tail, stop and indicators in one handy sealed unit. At the moment they are bolted on little brackets but they are so light and the power consumption so small they can be made removeable (even on velcro for example) with little connectors put somewhere discrete.

 

Looking closer

 

 

If you are wondering why the number plate and the LED Lights look a bit odd it is just the way it looks on the photo. The number plate sits about 12" further forward than the rear lights. The little red light next to the number plate is the correct tail lamp for it. Not terribly safe on modern roads.

 

The plan was to use the same thing on the Scammell. Put the correct tail light on it in the right place and then a pair of these. There are plenty of places to put them where they aren't too obvious. From memory these are about £40 for the pair.

 

On the subject of flashing orange lamps I have grave doubts that these make any difference whatsoever. At night they tend to be nothing but distracting to other road users and in daylight you can barely see them. People usually aren't looking anyway because they are more interested in what this wall is in front of them.

 

Apologies to anyone with Rubbolite lamps on their vehicles. It's none of my business what other people do.

[Jimh]

BTW just in case anyone thinks we are anally retentive rivet counters I would point out that it important to us that it looks right rather than some slavish attachment to originality. The Sentinel above has many modern adornments. It has a 350KW oil burner in place of its grates and PLC control for example. There aren't many steamers around which are reprogrammed with a laptop.

 

The hard chrome plating on the bores is hardly original nor is the titanium coating on the water pump plunger. The oil cooler isn't meant to be there and the boiler is made from proper metal that we have a vague idea what it is rather than the anthrax and spit stuff of yesteryear. In summary, modern stuff is good.

[gritineye]

A very impressive blend of old and new throughout the whole vehicle Jimh, no one with any knowledge of what it is like to keep old lorries going and driving them on modern roads could find fault with any of those modifications. Looking forward to seeing the finished Pioneer!

[Mark]

That is a lovely lorry and nothing looks out of place as you say.

[G506]

Hi Swill,

its a tricky question, originality versus safety. Personally, I think theres always a reasonable compromise, with my vehicles I aim for 'as it left the factory' condition, but on most WW2 vehicles the correct lighting in my opinion isnt up to modern road conditions. I really like Jimh's approach, carefully positioned and well thought through subtle modern lights, allowing the original lights to take their correct position.

You mention your Albion, which is of a similar age to my '53 Brockhouse trailer. From new it had trumpet style red rear lights only, no indicators, but within two or three years all similar (Sankey style) trailers had been field workshop modified to typical British army glass lense units with the four fins, red for stop and tail, and orange indicator. I believe around this time Austin Champs went through a similar change.

My '61 Land Rover has the four fin glass units, and I am perfectly happy with them, I suggest you fit those, for additional visibility you could then always fit bayonet fitting LED bulbs.

[mcspool]

The LED marker lights cost about £8 each and live for ever.

*snip*

Put the correct tail light on it in the right place and then a pair of these. There are plenty of places to put them where they aren't too obvious. From memory these are about £40 for the pair.

Excellent, really does not look out of place because they are so unobtrusive.

 

Where does one buy these sort of LED lights?

 

Do they come in 6V?

 

Thanks,

Hanno

[Jimh]

We used this place here. They seemed to have the best range of light units.

 

http://shop.aeswakefield.com/led-lighting-171-c.asp

 

As far as I can see from a quick look round other places if you are on 12 or 24 volt then you are home and dry. 6 volt systems don't seem to be catered for at all.

 

Edit: It would appear that there are things you can do to use LEDs on a 6 volt system, however, I don't really understand because ever since university I've always got somewhat glassy eyed when people start talking electronics. You could try reading this as a starting point. http://pigeonsnest.co.uk/stuff/mz/ledlights/ledlights.html

Edited April 9, 2009 by Jimh
Added stuff.

[Swill1952xs]

My collection of goodies for my Albion has taken a step forward today. I won a pair of headlights off E Bay. I've been watching them for a week and no one bid on them until today. There was a 99p bid, so I waited till the end and put in a bid for just over eighteen pounds. With postage that would have meant paying thirty for them if the bidding went silly.

The long and short of it was that I won them for 1.20 + 12.00 p&p. They are halogen lights, but who cares apart from the rivet counters. They don't have the outer rings on them, but I could either get them new, or if some more come up, I will bid on them too.

 

Link to E bay Headlights- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=160326312891

 

My rear light collection consists of the screw on glass lens lights with the four fins, a pair of 4" Butlers indicators and a pair of 3" red reflectors with the white surrounds. None of this should look out of place.

 

I also bought a Trico electric screenwash kit from John Richards Surplus for nineteen quid, inc postage. Everything is in a sealed plastic bag including pipes, bottle, pump, switch, wiring and jets. I thought that was very good value for money. Again it's all in keeping with an upgrade of the sixties. Spose it should have been a hand pump really, but they are annoying things to use and draw your attention away from driving.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Swill1952xs

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

.John Richards Surplus

Thats a name i had forgoten about,he was active in ex military at the time of Ruddington,I went to look at two 4x4 Zodiacs he had,proper Z cars.They were rough by standards of the day,but would of been easy by todays standards,wonder if any survived.He cant still be living?.CW.