LED lights will fail new MOT rules

[steviem]

An update to the MOT inspection manual now means classic car owners who have had LED bulbs fitted to their vehicles will fail their test. The new clarification will apply to modern classic vehicles and those who still opt to get their car checked despite already being exempt as a historic vehicle.

 

The MOT inspection manual states halogen units "should not be converted" to use HID or LED bulbs.

LED lights cannot be fitted anywhere else on your historic vehicle unless the bulbs meet ECE standard 128 and ECE standard 148.

However, few bulbs available on the market meet this standard making them illegal on UK vehicles.

The manual said: "Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high-intensity discharge (HID) or light-emitting diode (LED) bulbs.

[radiomike7]

Don't forget it has been illegal to use non 'E' marked bulbs for many years which can attract an on the spot fine.

One of the problems with LED indicators is that if following such a vehicle in a dark area at night the human eye is incapable of adjusting to the instant light from an LED compared to the short time it takes a conventional bulb to reach full brightness.

[matchlesswdg3]

But most of our old cars and MVs use(d) tungsten non-halogen headlamps, so I guess this rule does not apply; certainly won't apply if commonsense prevails and we have much better lighting at less demand on the charging system.

Edited March 13, 2021 by matchlesswdg3
spelling

[radiomike7]

50 minutes ago, matchlesswdg3 said:

But most of our old cars and MVs use(d) tungsten non-halogen headlamps, so I guess this rule does not apply; certainly won't apply if commonsense prevails and we have much better lighting at less demand on the charging system.

Good point and one I should have considered on a forum where many of us run older vehicles. I cannot find any relevant information but am almost sure that the sealed beam type units of 50 years ago were 'E' marked.

[79x100]

The 24w/24w non-focussed bulbs in motorcycle headlamps most certainly didn't have 'e' marks...neither does a 'Difusa' glass.

[utt61]

I find this both incomprehensible and depressing. For the last few years I have run a Landrover with good quality LED bulbs in the headlights, and it has passed the MOT beam test without any issues, ergo there cannot be a beam problem. They undoubtedly illuminate the road ahead far better than the original H4 bulbs, they use less power hence are "greener", and I really don't understand what is the argument against them.

[Scrunt & Farthing]

10 hours ago, utt61 said:

I find this both incomprehensible and depressing. For the last few years I have run a Landrover with good quality LED bulbs in the headlights, and it has passed the MOT beam test without any issues, ergo there cannot be a beam problem. They undoubtedly illuminate the road ahead far better than the original H4 bulbs, they use less power hence are "greener", and I really don't understand what is the argument against them.

I think the problem you describe is not one the driver of the vehicle (so fitted) experiences, rather it is traffic in the other direction.   LED lighting in my humble opinion can be a menace on the narrow lanes around here.  The intensity is just "blinding" to oncoming traffic.  

A chum of mine has a new car with LED lights and he tells me that at night he is either repeatedly flashed or other drivers switch to full-beam... I guess as some form of retaliation.  I have to say I am not surprised.  

Dave

[steviem]

If they are good enough for new cars why not older ones too?

[Mk3iain]

6 minutes ago, steviem said:

If they are good enough for new cars why not older ones too?

I think the problem is LED bulbs in lamps not designed or approved for them, lamps made as or for LEDs and approved should be ok.

My take on it anyway...

[utt61]

I don't disagree with any of the foregoing, however a good quality LED bulb designed to have appropriate characteristics to replace an H4 bulb, correctly adjusted, and producing a beam pattern which passes the MoT test requirements for headlight adjustment, will not in general dazzle anyone if used properly. Since the introduction of Type Approval it has been illegal to use a light source other than the one the light unit was designed for and type approved with, so technically the only thing that has changed is that now it is an MoT testable item and cause for a failure,  but I am sure that the objection is the technicality that the light is no longer compliant, not that there is necessarily a problem with its performance. 

I do actually think that all car headlights now are unnecessarily bright and only encourage today's "disconnected" drivers to drive excessively fast nearly all the time. I really don't like driving cars at night any more due to the incessant barrage of excessively bright oncoming lights (not so bad in a large vehicle though). Those of us who can remember driving in the 60s and 70s when headlights were useless and your eyes would adjust to the dark will know what I mean.

[Hair Bear]

Led lights are a menace and should be banned outright in public places. The light source is extremely intense yet the ratio of projected usable light is minimal with no true colour. We have led street lights and they are useless, can't walk anywhere without a torch.. You now have to drive on main beam (halogen thankfully) to see anything on side roads - proof being the main roads locally have gone back to orange sulphur type lights. The difference is 'clear to see'.

Our new night trunkers now come supplied with old style halogen front fog lights under the bumper and spots on top because the oem led headlights and cab top spots  are so bad. You can't necessarily see further with the halogens, but the detail of what is illuminated is far superior and has a greater three dimentional effect with true colour. What looks like a black patch repair in the road with leds will show up as a large pothole with halogen. Chevron boards look like chevron boards whereas the leds just give a blinding white wall of light reflection. Lethal. Don't start me on the strobe effect.

Projector lenses are useless too. And whats the point of Hid lights that flash when they're switched on? Car approaching, goes under some trees, huge flash of light as the auto lights switch on. That second or two while they focus and level themselves could mean the difference to the oncoming car of seeing the cyclist or feeling a bump in the road.

Rant over, feeling better, sorry 'bout that that...

[Scrunt & Farthing]

3 minutes ago, Hair Bear said:

Led lights are a menace and should be banned outright in public places. The light source is extremely intense yet the ratio of projected usable light is minimal with no true colour. We have led street lights and they are useless, can't walk anywhere without a torch.. You now have to drive on main beam (halogen thankfully) to see anything on side roads - proof being the main roads locally have gone back to orange sulphur type lights. The difference is 'clear to see'.

Our new night trunkers now come supplied with old style halogen front fog lights under the bumper and spots on top because the oem led headlights and cab top spots  are so bad. You can't necessarily see further with the halogens, but the detail of what is illuminated is far superior and has a greater three dimentional effect with true colour. What looks like a black patch repair in the road with leds will show up as a large pothole with halogen. Chevron boards look like chevron boards whereas the leds just give a blinding white wall of light reflection. Lethal. Don't start me on the strobe effect.

Projector lenses are useless too. And whats the point of Hid lights that flash when they're switched on? Car approaching, goes under some trees, huge flash of light as the auto lights switch on. That second or two while they focus and level themselves could mean the difference to the oncoming car of seeing the cyclist or feeling a bump in the road.

Rant over, feeling better, sorry 'bout that that...

I could not have said it any better.

[radiomike7]

4 hours ago, Scrunt & Farthing said:

I could not have said it any better.

Glad it is not just me. The other design issue is auto dipping lights, they cannot see round corners and constantly blind you until they dip.  In the good old days it was courteous to dip your lights on seeing approaching lights on a bend. 

[andym]

My current pet peeve is the "sweeping" indicators fitted to a lot of new vehicles.  Not only are they completely unnecessary but they are hopeless in bright sunlight.  I followed a Golf and an A3 the other day, one with sweeping indicators and one without, and the difference was chalk and cheese.

Andy

[utt61]

I would add auto "steering" fog lights to the list of hates, utterly pointless, solving a problem which doesn't exist.

[Scrunt & Farthing]

It does seem to me that all of these modern phenomenon's that so vex my driving life have one principle thing in common.   In almost every case the offending vehicle has a knob behind the steering wheel that thinks their right to the road is more important than mine; that stopping distances do not apply to them; that the outside lane is exclusively for their enjoyment and that their stupid fairy-light indicators will in some way impress me to believe that they are richer, cleverer and more important than me.  [and whilst I am at it,  personal number plates that cleverly spell the word "BOSS"].    I have taken to flicking certain vulgar gestures in the direction of any Audi, BMW or Range Rover driver I meet.  It is most cathartic and I commend it to all until the scourge is beaten. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Scrunt & Farthing

[Hair Bear]

Going back about ten years now, we had a batch of VW T5.1 vans delivered. Almost over night we had piles of near miss reports in the office (which up 'till then were almost unheard of) and almost all had one common denominator.

Random vehicle pulling out in front of van when turning right on roundabout.

It didn't take much head scratching to work out why. These were fitted with daytime running lights. These lights were white, 4" x 4", and  21w. The indicator was directly beside it, 4"x3" with a 21w orange bulb. Result - Invisible indicators unless you are viewing from directly in front. Fixed by replacing the drl bulbs with 10w., instant cure. Then we tried some Transits. Oh dear. The drl lights on these are the main beam lights on reduced current! Still the main beam lenses for goodness sake. What are they thinking?

And what's going to happen when the american idea of the 'drl lights going out every time the handbrake is applied' catches on??? More flashing lights than a cheap 70's nightclub.

(Don't let on, but I drive a Range Rover).

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hair Bear

[matchlesswdg3]

Notice issued today - the rules have been changed to cater for certain types of LED conversion, which I am assuming covers our concerns though not read it yet.  

[matchlesswdg3]

To clarify, for vehicles we use.....only vehicles first used after 1 April 1986.

 

Class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles

For class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles, the defect ‘Light source and lamp not compatible’ only applies to vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986.

Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect.

Vehicles presented with converted halogen headlamp units first used on or after 1 April 1986 will continue to be failed.

Headlamps must comply with all other requirements of the test and headlamp aim.

The cars and passenger vehicles inspection manual will be updated shortly

[Hair Bear]

Looks like there will be discussion about the led 'ticking time bomb' soon. Probably won't change anything but it appears the an RAC survey suggests the situation is getting worse.

[ferretfixer]

On 3/13/2021 at 2:19 PM, matchlesswdg3 said:

But most of our old cars and MVs use(d) tungsten non-halogen headlamps, so I guess this rule does not apply; certainly won't apply if common-sense prevails and we have much better lighting at less demand on the charging system.

On a Lighter note.....

Matchless's quote of 'If Common sense Prevails'. Really did make Me smile!...😁

I mean, 'Common Sense linked with a Government department!...REALLY?.....🤣

[10FM68]

On 3/19/2021 at 5:56 PM, matchlesswdg3 said:

To clarify, for vehicles we use.....only vehicles first used after 1 April 1986.

 

Class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles

For class 3,4,5 and 7 vehicles, the defect ‘Light source and lamp not compatible’ only applies to vehicles first used on or after 1 April 1986.

Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect.

Vehicles presented with converted halogen headlamp units first used on or after 1 April 1986 will continue to be failed.

Headlamps must comply with all other requirements of the test and headlamp aim.

The cars and passenger vehicles inspection manual will be updated shortly

I never noticed this post at the time, but, this couldn't have been less clear if they had tried.  I don't think whoever drafted it had English as  first language.

This sentence, "Should a vehicle be presented for an MOT test with conversions before 1 April 1986 they must not be failed with immediate effect." as written suggests that the vehicle will not fail as long as it is presented for MoT prior to 1 Apr 86 - clearly an impossibility as this notice was issued in 2021!  Though it also suggests that it is the MoT which has, or had, the conversions - also ludicrous!

While this sentence, "Vehicles presented with converted halogen headlamp units first used on or after 1 April 1986 will continue to be failed." clearly implies that only vehicles (of any age) fitted with converted headlamps which had been in use prior to 1 Apr 86 would pass - again, an impossibility!  I am really surprised to see such appalling wording in a legally-applicable document.

What a shame more care wasn't taken, but I think it would be an impossibility to obtain a conviction in a court of law based on the wording of these notices - their ambiguity is significant.

[gordonb]

And if you go straight from tungsten bulbs to LED then it is not a halogen conversion and thus no problem and an MoT pass. That is how I read it.

 

[Mk3iain]

There are plenty of replacement LED headlamp units out there including vintage type replacements from Holden etc.   Not cheap though !

[Hair Bear]

I noticed recently some new vehicles with twin dipped beam lights notably Merc and BMW. I thought twin dipped weren't allowed?