news Fined for driving 25mph on an A road

[Pete Ashby]

Given the speed of some of our older vehicles it may be worth reading this link below.

 

Iv'e never come across this before on an A road unfortunatly this case will have set the legal precident I'm afraid.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3674032/The-conviction-motorist-cheer-Tractor-driver-fined-190-trundling-slowly-queue-FIFTY-cars-trapped-him.html

 

Pete

[Mk3iain]

I am sure this is not unheard of even if rare, it's all down to common sense and making sure that you are aware of what's behind you. If you are doing around 25mph you should know what traffic is like behind you.

Where the "every third lay by" guide came from ? What if they are miles apart.:nut:

Anyway, for a professional driver, not good enough.:nono:

[paulob1]

got to agree, to get that level of traffic behind him he must have been in a day dream, but I seriously doubt he has been trained as a professional driver, even though he is...in reality it seems like the truck was the real problem, he should have moved over for that to pass as it would have been unlikely on an a road that he could get past.

 

we took our wrapper and front mounted tedder 25 miles in the late hours of the night to avoid traffic as we had to use major a roads and some minor a roads...can ver very scary...an accident with the tedder on the front would be very serious...

[N.O.S.]

The photo in the article does show the tractor passing an apparently empty lay by…...

 

I pull over with a slow vehicle at every opportunity, especially when you don't know when you can next pull over.

 

Two problems which often arise:

 

1) when some idiot won't overtake when it is perfectly safe to do so, thereby causing unnecessary chaos.

 

2) when an idiot driving slightly faster than you appears behind with 100 cars in tow - he gets past and leaves you with an instant line of cars behind you, who is then seen as the culprit. Often a police car appears at that very moment…….

[Jack]

The photo in the article does show the tractor passing an apparently empty lay by…...

 

I pull over with a slow vehicle at every opportunity, especially when you don't know when you can next pull over.

 

Two problems which often arise:

 

1) when some idiot won't overtake when it is perfectly safe to do so, thereby causing unnecessary chaos.

 

2) when an idiot driving slightly faster than you appears behind with 100 cars in tow - he gets past and leaves you with an instant line of cars behind you, who is then seen as the culprit. Often a police car appears at that very moment…….

 

 

Think it is a stock image NOS as he is pulling a bale wrapper - think he was pulling a trailer full of beet :-)

[w896andy]

To put some context behind it, I live in the area and know the road well, it’s a very busy and fast-ish (by Somerset standards anyway) through route for the area. I’m guessing by the description it was a contracting firm who do most of the jobs locally around the area these days.

 

The local contracting firms are I have to say a pain in the backside, they employ young (cheap!) drivers who have no road sense and drive the largest tractors and trailers available at their top speed everywhere, usually passing cars in narrow lanes and through villages without slowing. These outfits are maximum width and about 20 tons all up with trailers loaded. The firms they work for run lean businesses with very small margins so they don’t stop for anybody, time is everything to them and they don’t pull over for anything. Additionally as there are no driver’s hour’s restrictions they work around 18 hours a day in busy seasons.

 

So 20 tons of very high and wide vehicles all driven by teenagers, working far too many hours, some of who haven’t passed their car test yet (you can drive from 16 yrs old) and all of whom appear always to be talking on their mobile phones holding them to their ears permanently. I had to wait at a junction last week for 5 tractors with trailers to pass me in convoy as I guess they moved onto their next job, 4 were talking on the phone and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to follow one where the driver has not checked his mirrors once and has been talking on the phone for mile after mile.

 

The local police are usually reasonably good around here and I don’t doubt they would have warned the firm a couple of times before stopping them but I can easily see how they would get annoyed by one of these on a major through route for the area holding up 50 vehicles for 3 miles and then not seeing it was an issue.

 

I don’t think any of us would allow ourselves to get into that situation as for us pulling over once in a while if its needed is just common sense and we don’t have a boss screaming at us to keep moving.

[Ashcollection]

To put some context behind it, I live in the area and know the road well, it’s a very busy and fast-ish (by Somerset standards anyway) through route for the area. I’m guessing by the description it was a contracting firm who do most of the jobs locally around the area these days.

 

The local contracting firms are I have to say a pain in the backside, they employ young (cheap!) drivers who have no road sense and drive the largest tractors and trailers available at their top speed everywhere, usually passing cars in narrow lanes and through villages without slowing. These outfits are maximum width and about 20 tons all up with trailers loaded. The firms they work for run lean businesses with very small margins so they don’t stop for anybody, time is everything to them and they don’t pull over for anything. Additionally as there are no driver’s hour’s restrictions they work around 18 hours a day in busy seasons.

 

So 20 tons of very high and wide vehicles all driven by teenagers, working far too many hours, some of who haven’t passed their car test yet (you can drive from 16 yrs old) and all of whom appear always to be talking on their mobile phones holding them to their ears permanently. I had to wait at a junction last week for 5 tractors with trailers to pass me in convoy as I guess they moved onto their next job, 4 were talking on the phone and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to follow one where the driver has not checked his mirrors once and has been talking on the phone for mile after mile.

 

The local police are usually reasonably good around here and I don’t doubt they would have warned the firm a couple of times before stopping them but I can easily see how they would get annoyed by one of these on a major through route for the area holding up 50 vehicles for 3 miles and then not seeing it was an issue.

 

I don’t think any of us would allow ourselves to get into that situation as for us pulling over once in a while if its needed is just common sense and we don’t have a boss screaming at us to keep moving.

Similar issue round our way, that have tipped over 3 trailers in the last year, one at a junction of a major duel carriage way.They drive like crazy!. I'm a farmer and it gives us a bad reputation.

[Pete Ashby]

I've just had a wander around the Gov.UK site and I haven't been able to find any definitive statement about minimum speed limits here in the UK can anyone point them to me please?, however what I have found on a site that gives hints and tips to learner drivers is the following I have copied verbatim :

 

CAN YOU BE FINED FOR DRIVING TOO SLOW

Although there is no minimum speed limit on the majority of UK roads, you can still be fined for driving too slow if it is seen that you are a hazard to other road users. There is no specific penalty for driving too slowly and as such, penalties may be as little as a verbal warning by a police officer along with a lecture of the dangers of driving too slow and in more serious cases, a motorist may find themselves in court charged with driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users (penalty code CD30). The more serious penalty CD30 comes with penalty points on a motorists licence, anywhere from 3 to 9 along with a fine. Penalty points stay on a motorists licence for four years from the date of the offence and are likely to seriously impact the cost of car insurance.

 

The amount of penalty points set between 3 and 9 and a fine of anything up to a maximum of £5,000 are determined by the seriousness of the incident and the decision of the court.

 

So it would appear that the young lad in question was done under CD30 the particular rights and wrongs of this case are not I would suggest of of interest to us as a body, the speed at which the offence was deemed to have been committed is however.

 

As I said at the start of this thread there is now a clear legal precedent set on what would appear to be the subjective evidence of the enforcing officer at any one time with regard to what is or is not a safe and reasonable minimum speed to maintain.

 

Pete

[N.O.S.]

Think it is a stock image NOS as he is pulling a bale wrapper - think he was pulling a trailer full of beet :-)

 

Yep - just read it properly Jack. Clubhouse workshop gents toilet getting bad did you say? On to it right now…….

[N.O.S.]

…….As I said at the start of this thread there is now a clear legal precedent set on what would appear to be the subjective evidence of the enforcing officer at any one time with regard to what is or is not a safe and reasonable minimum speed to maintain.

 

Pete

 

Not so sure Pete - although speed was obviously a contributing factor, it was not mentioned in the specific charge, which is more about ignoring a line of vehicles behind (the only defence against which would be to demonstrate that you pulled over at every opportunity I guess?):

 

Traffic police charged the tractor driver with driving without reasonable consideration for other road users after the early morning tailback on the A39 in November last year.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2016 by N.O.S.

[N.O.S.]

I would have thought the slow vehicle driver's legal defence would be that the line of cars had all built up behind since he last pulled over to allow vehicles past, and that there was not a suitable place to pull over between that point and the point of being apprehended.

 

He can argue he has a right to use the road, but not to do so without unreasonable consideration for other road users.

[Pete Ashby]

Not so sure Pete - although speed was obviously a contributing factor, it was not mentioned in the specific charge, which is more about ignoring a line of vehicles behind (the only defence against which would be to demonstrate that you pulled over at every opportunity I guess?):

 

Traffic police charged the tractor driver with driving without reasonable consideration for other road users after the early morning tailback on the A39 in November last year.

 

 

 

 

Under fine code CD30 which appears to me to be totally subjective.

 

Lets bring the discussion a little nearer home..... you are driving your Diamond T or Scammell Pioneer on the flat highway and you haven't passed a lay bay or safe pull in for 2 miles and you have let's say an arbitrary 6 cars behind you....... can you be accused of not being judicious.

 

Here's another example... you are in a convoy of 4 or 5 mixed trucks going to a show you are keeping a sensible gap between vehicles to let the cars drivers pass and pull in between your vehicles your speed on the flat is 35 mph you come to an incline and your speed drops to 20 mph or perhaps 15 mph for a couple of miles and the ques behind gets longer ( you have no way of knowing how many are there other that perhaps the first half dozen, there are no passing places............ now how can you demonstrate judicious behavior?.

 

Pete

[utt61]

I don't think any precedents have been set with this prosecution, this law has been on the statute books for years. The last case I recall hearing about was a caravanner who, again, allowed a huge queue to build up behind him and made no attempt to allow the traffic to pass, and was many years ago.

 

There is no offence of driving too slowly on a normal road, and there are very few places in the UK where minimum speed limits apply (the law does allow this though). The offence was not 'driving too slowly', it was, to paraphrase, being a completely inconsiderate plonk and causing unnecessary inconvenience to other road users. Provided that, if you are driving a slow vehicle, you take reasonable steps to be considerate to other road users, you will not be prosecuted.

[N.O.S.]

You don't need to, Pete - that's what your barrister with questionable ethics is paid to do :cool2: It's amazing how they can run rings around anything to do with 'subjective application of law'.

 

I agree with you it is subjective, and there are no black and white answers - I guess all you can do is drive with care and consideration for other road users. If you believe the examples above are doing just that, then what more can you do?

[Enigma]

 

So 20 tons of very high and wide vehicles all driven by teenagers, working far too many hours, some of who haven’t passed their car test yet (you can drive from 16 yrs old) and all of whom appear always to be talking on their mobile phones holding them to their ears permanently. I had to wait at a junction last week for 5 tractors with trailers to pass me in convoy as I guess they moved onto their next job, 4 were talking on the phone and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to follow one where the driver has not checked his mirrors once and has been talking on the phone for mile after mile.

 

That's if you are lucky, at least they are more or less looking at the road ahead.

Its even more dangerous when they are looking at the screen because of their mortal fear they didn't read a message within 1 minute of posting.....:angry

[Pete Ashby]

You don't need to, Pete - that's what your barrister with questionable ethics is paid to do :cool2: It's amazing how they can run rings around anything to do with 'subjective application of law'.

 

I agree with you it is subjective, and there are no black and white answers - I guess all you can do is drive with care and consideration for other road users. If you believe the examples above are doing just that, then what more can you do?

 

Agreed NoS and this is what we should all be doing and keeping a wary eye out for the plod.

 

for reference purposes and with no further comment I have included a link here that gives the three main legal definitions of precedent http://www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/precedents/

 

Pete (busy fitting a supercharger to my Retriever)

[Degsy]

I cannot comment on this particular case as I am not familiar with the road or the exact circumstances but in this area it is a major problem. The A roads tend to be comparatively narrow and twisting with few stopping places and especially in the summer months are usually taken up with camper vans and caravans or used by the council to tip materials when roadworks or resurfacing are being carried out in the area. As has been mentioned previously cars behind get far too close, can't see and so don't overtake when the opportunity is there. I agree that there are some tractor drivers who are inconsiderate but that can apply equally to all road users.

[Sean N]

Pete, I think you are worrying too much. It's something to be aware of, but there has been an obligation for many years to be aware of and considerate to other road users and to travel with the general flow of traffic - or if you can't, to pull over regularly or otherwise make allowances so that vehicles could pass. I seem to remember it was in the Highway Code when I took my test, and that was many moons ago! This is by no means the first person to be prosecuted for it, and a case in a magistrate's court doesn't set precedent anyway.

[Pete Ashby]

No I'm not worried Sean it doesn't really impact on me.

 

For many years (40 years this year) I have driven many thousands of miles here in the UK and on the continent in a range of preserved vehicles getting by using common sense and common road courtesy and on the rare occasion these days I move my stuff around I either trailer it or take small relatively fast vehicles.

 

My reason for flagging this up was for the good of us all here on HMVF who own large slow vehicles so that we all sing from the same song sheet and are aware of the requirement under CD30.

I'm not fully clear about the range and scope of the Magistrates court however I wonder if Persuasive Precedent may not play a part if the plaintive offered the charge which was then rejected by the counsel acting for the accused and the case was taken to a higher court.

 

Either way it's not the intention of this thread to argue the finer points of case law, it's purely to bring the issue to the attention of members on the basis that ignorance of the law is no defense.

 

Pete

Edited July 6, 2016 by Pete Ashby
missing sentence

[Diana and Jackie]

Under fine code CD30 which appears to me to be totally subjective.

 

............ now how can you demonstrate judicious behavior?.

 

Pete

 

Simply by demonstrating you had taken every possible step, such as pulling in at every opportunity, checking to see if you had built up a queue of traffic behind you regularly, going at a maximum possible speed consistent with the speed restrictions on that particular piece of road and the vehicle you were driving, not traveling at a time when you may suspect or have reason to suspect that it was a busy time of day on that road.

 

I would suggest on an A road building up queue of 50 cars is asking for trouble, but then that is subjective!

 

Diana

[andym]

Highway Code Rule 169: "Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass." This was drummed into me as part of the H test and I'm bemused that it surprises anyone, especially a so-called "professional" driver!

 

Andy

[Surveyor]

 

Highway Code Rule 169: "Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass." This was drummed into me as part of the H test and I'm bemused that it surprises anyone, especially a so-called "professional" driver!Andy

I was told a number of years ago that it was a rule that 5 cars/vehicles was the limit, slower tractors on the road then, cant find the rule now

[T.Watts]

On the other hand the maximum speed limit for a tractor on the road is 25mph!!

I know I must of had a fair queue of traffic a couple of years ago when they were duelling the a11 and I moved a combine through it and all lay-bys were shut!!

 

whoops may have just admitted to being one of these people that plod about holding everyone up!!

[Pete Ashby]

Highway Code Rule 169: "Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass." This was drummed into me as part of the H test and I'm bemused that it surprises anyone, especially a so-called "professional" driver!

 

Andy

 

Hmmm, just re-read the article and I can see no suggestion that he was classed as a 'professional driver' there is however an interesting comment used in the defense that there was deemed nowhere safe to pull over.

 

Perhaps there is little merit in discussing the actual case only in so much as it relates to our activities and relative speeds on the highway, rather it acts as a reminder for all of us that Rule 169 is on the statue and is applied in a subjective manner by the courts using fines and points as defined by CD30.

 

Pete

[Richard Farrant]

You would not want to follow this one, an accident waiting to happen ......... don't think he could be classed as a professional