What licence for a CCKW?

[diggerdog36]

I know this is probably quite a basic question but I'm confused!

 

If I passed my test in 1999 and have B and B1 on my licence which is vans upto 3500kg, does this mean I can drive a CCKW which is surely 2.5t (hence it's name, Duece and a half!!)

 

Or, am I being stupid!!

[John Comber]

It's the gross vehicle weight you need to take into account, I.e. it's designed weight including potential load, this puts a CCKW over the allowance on your licence, unsure however if there are any loopholes in the law which may assist you!, I am sure further advise will follow mine though.

[Lauren Child]

1) Remember there is a difference between imperial ton, US ton, and tonne. Find a conversion calculator.

 

2) As above, it's the gross vehicle weight (vehicle plus the maximum permissible load). 2.5 ton is probably the weight that the vehicle can carry, not including the weight of the vehicle.

 

3) If it's pre-1960 then you can drive some vehicles outside of your weight class as long as they are unladen (not carrying anything).

 

That's as I understand it anyway. If in doubt get some professional advice or check the uk.gov website for the DVLA leaflets etc.

[Locolines]

I think you'll find a gmc 353 weighs over 5 tons

[Degsy]

As the vehicle is pre 1960 you can drive it on your car licence as long as it is unladen. You can also tow an unladen trailer.

[No Signals]

I remember this situation being discussed some years ago on a thread on here. Degsy is correct in his statements about pre 1960 and 'unladen'. The issue becomes complicated by various individuals interpretation of 'unladen', and my take on that is that you will only find out the full interpretation, of that, if you have an accident that involves the police and your insurance company.

 

The police will have their interpretation of 'unladen' and so will the insurance companies (Bless 'em)

 

A friend of mine tried to clarify the insurance aspect some years back, for his own peace of mind, and his company took the line that only the standard issued toolkit etc (CES), or its modern equivalent, was allowable 'in the back' - anything else was a load - 'laden' and would invalidate his insurance! They were quite clear that included his camping gear!! Quite happy to accept this may not be the case for all companies, or indeed that company, whoever it was, may have changed their stance.

 

I accept there are a lot of people driving such vehicles around, fully laden and they are excellent drivers and cause no accidents. I did the same myself, lots of us do. It is 'Daz' in his hot hatch driving in to someone that will be the problem :-D

[Brooky]

As the vehicle is pre 1960 you can drive it on your car licence as long as it is unladen. You can also tow an unladen trailer.

 

Exactly......................unladen means not carrying goods for hire and reward (providing date of manufacture is stated as pre 1960)

CAT B licence

[Adrian Barrell]

Exactly......................unladen means not carrying goods for hire and reward (providing date of manufacture is stated as pre 1960)

CAT B licence

 

No, unladen means just that, unladen. Hire or reward, or 'in connection with trade or business', is a taxation and O licence issue.

[Tony B]

Well since unladen weight is the vehicle with full oil and fuel but not driver. Where does that leave the situation? Screwed up as usual. :-\

[diggerdog36]

Where does the DVLA state this pre-1960 entitlement, I've looked and I can't find anything about it.

[Gordon_M]

.... and the real world one.

 

In the real world nobody is going to complain if you are carrying spare wheel(s) jack, petrol, oil, and water - including jerrycans, stuff like that.

 

You'd have a pretty defensible case if you were carrying a 'load' that was mocked up strictly for show and did not constitute a real load for the vehicle - for example if your GMC was full of empty wooden crates, or maybe that 'jeep-in-a-crate' box that the 514th were craning into and out of the GMC and Chev at the recent do using that nice big Brockway Crane.

 

I'd have to point out the huge grey areas though - suppose you put your jeep in the back of your GMC to take it to a show ? Perfectly reasonable thing to do, well within the limitations of the vehicle, but definite grey area. You could argue that in that case the 'load' itself was a historic vehicle so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Actual commercial use of a WW2 vehicle, needing full compliance, taxes, insurances, licenses, and the like, must be a nightmare. I can only think of tour DUKWs and goodness knows how much paper they need to operate.

[Adrian Barrell]

.... and the real world one.

 

I'd have to point out the huge grey areas though - suppose you put your jeep in the back of your GMC to take it to a show ? Perfectly reasonable thing to do, well within the limitations of the vehicle, but definite grey area. You could argue that in that case the 'load' itself was a historic vehicle so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Grey area? A Jeep is a load, very black and white.

[Tony B]

It WAS leallet DVLA INF 52. Though as usual DVLA website is doing it's own thing!

[Lauren Child]

The Collins English Dictionary defines laden as

laden [ˈleɪdən]

vb

a past participle of lade1

 

adj

1. weighed down with a load; loaded

 

2. encumbered; burdened

 

I'd say it came down to what was reasonably considered weighed down or burdened. Popping your coat in the back on an overcast day probably isn't. If you put a tent or bag in the back does it load or burden the vehicle? That depends on how heavy it is I guess.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, just trying to look at this and form a reasonable opinion. Get some professional advice if you think you need to.

[T corbin]

When we had the inspector from the DLVA come to look at the GTB bomb & M5 trailer .I ask can I carry bombs on the trailer.The answer was no . But he said he would go back to the office and look at the regulations . He rang me back two weeks latter .And said .If you use dummy bombs they must be fixed to the trailer (bolted or welded ) Also equipment that is listed in the TM can also be cared (it all then becomes a display truck & trailer ) T CORBIN

[utt61]

.... and the real world one.

 

In the real world nobody is going to complain if you are carrying spare wheel(s) jack, petrol, oil, and water - including jerrycans, stuff like that.

 

You will probably get away with this provided that the quantities are reasonable. One jerrycan probably OK, 20, no chance!

 

You'd have a pretty defensible case if you were carrying a 'load' that was mocked up strictly for show and did not constitute a real load for the vehicle - for example if your GMC was full of empty wooden crates, or maybe that 'jeep-in-a-crate' box that the 514th were craning into and out of the GMC and Chev at the recent do using that nice big Brockway Crane.

 

Not a chance! You don't have an earthly of getting away with this.

 

Camping equipment is a load, the only stuff which is allowed is the tools, equipment, etc which is reasonably needed to ensure that the journey can be completed successfully. In the eyes of the law, a packet of sandwiches is legally a load, since you can stop and buy/eat it during the journey and don't need to carry it.

 

I'd have to point out the huge grey areas though - suppose you put your jeep in the back of your GMC to take it to a show ? Perfectly reasonable thing to do, well within the limitations of the vehicle, but definite grey area. You could argue that in that case the 'load' itself was a historic vehicle so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Not a grey area at all - illegal. You will not get away with this.

 

Actual commercial use of a WW2 vehicle, needing full compliance, taxes, insurances, licenses, and the like, must be a nightmare. I can only think of tour DUKWs and goodness knows how much paper they need to operate.

 

Commercial use probably not a problem at all, but you'll need the right licence, insurance, O Licence, and maintenance regimes. Some modifications may also be required. You won't be able to tax it as "historic" if you use it laden for commercial purposes.

 

The answer to the OP's question is yes, you can drive it on a "B" licence provided that it is genuinely unladen. To tow an unladen trailer I believe you'll need B+E (unless the trailer meets the exemptions that allow it under a "B" licence, which is unlikely). If you carry your sandwiches with you, ie it's not unladen, you'll need a minimum of C1 (or C1+E with trailer). C1 is sufficient since the MAM is under 7.5 tonnes.

Edited September 16, 2013 by utt61

[utt61]

When we had the inspector from the DLVA come to look at the GTB bomb & M5 trailer .I ask can I carry bombs on the trailer.The answer was no . But he said he would go back to the office and look at the regulations . He rang me back two weeks latter .And said .If you use dummy bombs they must be fixed to the trailer (bolted or welded ) Also equipment that is listed in the TM can also be cared (it all then becomes a display truck & trailer ) T CORBIN

 

Correct, since if they're not removable they're part of the vehicle and not a load. I suppose that it does then constitute a modification so your insurance comapny should be notified!

 

(I would stress that they're not real bombs when telling the insurance comapny too!)

[Brooky]

I suppose in the real world although anything carried could be construed as a load and therefore the vehicle is not unladen it would be up to a judge to decide

[R Cubed]

As the vehicle is pre 1960 you can drive it on your car license as long as it is unladen. You can also tow an unladen trailer.

 

Moving sideways a little on this then, if your driving license allows you to drive up to say 7.5tonnes, a GMC is 5 tons empty and can carry a load of 2.5 tons giving a total load of 7.5 tons. Would this then mean that you would be legal to drive the GMC loaded with only your own possessions ?

 

 

What does the "use unladen" refer to:-

 

is it your license in so much as what you are entitled to drive ?

 

or does it have a bearing on the pre 1960 thing, vehicle tax disc ie being "Historic" or not ?

 

as several have said a bit grey !!

[N.O.S.]

USE UNLADEN is related specifically to the way the vehicle is taxed and tested. You can use a pre 1960 vehicle untested so long as it is used unladen when taxed Historic. If you want to carry a load you'll need to get it tested (and have an appropriate driving licence too).

 

You can tow a trailer (again unladen) under the same exemption but a load comprised of your own possessions is a load and therefore not unladen.

 

Driving a pre 1960 vehicle above the usual weight restriction is a benefit allowed by virtue of the historic vehicle legislation.

 

Once you know what constitutes a LOAD you'll know exactly what UNLADEN means :cool2:

[R Cubed]

USE UNLADEN is related specifically to the way the vehicle is taxed and tested. You can use a pre 1960 vehicle untested so long as it is used unladen when taxed Historic. If you want to carry a load you'll need to get it tested (and have an appropriate driving licence too).

 

You can tow a trailer (again unladen) under the same exemption but a load comprised of your own possessions is a load and therefore not unladen.

 

Driving a pre 1960 vehicle above the usual weight restriction is a benefit allowed by virtue of the historic vehicle legislation.

 

Once you know what constitutes a LOAD you'll know exactly what UNLADEN means :cool2:

 

So does that now mean that a pre 1960's land rover where before the new ruling came in you could carry a load and now that it does not need an mot you can only use it unladen

[N.O.S.]

Now you know very well that the UNLADEN clause only applies to vehicles over 3.5t :n00b:

[MICHAEL01]

Hi All

I had to look into this matter, as lm 25 and want to drive my Diamond T, Like so many its an unknown area so l did the research myself and phoned the DVLA and wanted proof that my car license will cover me to drive this old lorry. Here is proof from the horses mouth to clarify this matter, Stating the vehicle must be pre1960 and unladen. Hope this helps.

[gas 44]

So going by all the info in this thread, nearly all of the pre 1960 mv's (over 3.5t) are infact running on the road are illegal.

Of course I may be wrong, but I cant remember the last time I saw a,lets say CCKW that was truley unladen.

Now a question, do people form a load ? I mean for example in the rear of a vehicle.

[paulbrook]

I would say that the question of loaded/unladen is a simple one - if a policeman or a VOSA inspector (who now no longer need to be accompanied by police) lifts the back canopy and sees a completely empty loadbed then I think the letter of the law is met. If he sees a small toolbox, a jerrycan and a small box of tools then again, it would be fair to assume that the spirit of the law is met (even though technically it isnt) and you would be waved on your way.

 

Anything else, including dummy loads, are outside both the spirit and the letter of the law. You may well get waved on with a warning, or you may be facing a hefty fine (about a grand at the last count).

 

Recent experience in other areas of our hobby suggest a renewed VOSA interest in this sort of thing. Many tractor enthusiasts have been carrying tractors on 7.5 tonners (driven with CatC1 grandfather rights) with the caravan up behind. The trouble is that once you put a trailer on then the driver actually needs a full C1 plus E. Again they are now all about a grand lighter bank balance wise.

 

So whilst I would not wish to spoil anyones party it does seemto me that as a responsible movement we should be trying wherever possible to do the right thing - both in fact and in spirit.

 

How boring am I???

[Tony B]

Actually! Those of us trusted with C1 normally have C1+E as well. :angel: With various 'pressure groups' jumpimg on the road transport and vehicle bandwagons, what hope have you of getting it all correct?