Vulture Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) Charging problem ? Gentlemen, your wise counsel is sought (again) on how to proceed with a problem that surfaced yesterday.... Issue In A Nutshell 1. Battery did not have enough charge to turn truck over. Background facts 2. New 6v battery purchased by previous owner on 23 Jun 2012 and used a couple of times to do a few miles prior to sale. 3. I obtained the vehicle end of July. I reckon I have done approximately 300 miles since then, and 20 to 25 engine starts. 4. Amp meter never shows any charge, and never moves from the 0 position unless the headlights are turned on, at which point it shows a drain on the system. I have not done any driving with the lights on. 5. Truck has always started without a problem in the short time I have had it. Thoughts Prior To Yesterday. 6. Given that the truck had been starting fine, I'm thinking that the Amp meter might have a problem. What Happened Yesterday 7. Tried to start the truck. Classic low battery symptoms, engine turnover a couple of times slowly, before the battery became exhausted. 5.1 tons of immobile truck stuck on the drive, and one disappointed young son who was looking forward to a trip out. Was tempted to put battery on charge, but then remembered I have home start with Adrian Flux Recovery, so a few hours later I called them out. 8. On arrival the mechanic tested the battery and found it was showing 6v. 8. Mechanic suggested I try starting the truck, and low and behold, it turned over as normal and fired up without any problem. 9. Mechanic checked over the earthing straps and couldn't see anything amiss. 10. Mechanic on testing the generator could not find any output... How To Proceed ? I don't understand how the battery which appeared exhausted, can without assistance have recovered enough charge turn some four hours later to start the truck as if nothing had happened. I referred to the manual, which suggests removing the cover band. This I did. There was almost no dust, and the brushes as far as I can see look okay. - - - - Do I: a) Pretend nothing happened ? (the do nothing option) b) Take the Generator off and send it to a specialist ? c) Do something else ? If so what ? Your thoughts would be much appreciated Cheers Vulture Edited August 15, 2011 by Vulture To insert images Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mogmaner Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 looking at the pic of the com i would say ,clean com with fine emy or wet and dry check brushes for free movement and replace if worn down ,also check starter brushes are not stiching this can give the simptons you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopnut Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 One check you could make, and its easy, remove cover from regulator, assuming you still have the standard regulator, run the the engine, check and see if the points close on the cut out regulator , the one nearest to centre of truck, they should close when you take the up revs up, if they dont, fault could be with generator/wiring, if they close, fault could be with the regulator. WORD OF WARNING. Do not be tempted to close cut out points manually, with engine not running, this will make a circuit between battery and generator, and will try and turn the generator, like a motor. I remember this happening in Holland many years ago, a lot of smoke in the engine compartment, the truck belonged to a regular member on this forum, who now resides in Suffolk. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrtcrowther Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I'd have a look at the regulator box first. Google Lucas or Bosch regulator box testing and you should be able to get a good idea how they work even if its not a lucas or Bosch unit. they are very easy to set up and test don't be afraid of them they look very complicated at first but its just a load of old electrical switches. ~Batteries are funny things I've had the same thing happen to me failed start then give it a go in passing and it starts.:nut: Don't forget the simple check of all the connections before you do anything first;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 16, 2011 Author Share Posted August 16, 2011 mogmaner, shopnut and rbrtcrowther Thanks for your suggestions. Annoyingly I'm away from home with work until Thursday night. When I get back I'll give your suggestions a try.Kind regardsVulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychoman Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Comments as above re the battery being near as damn it flat and then having enough kick to turn it over - I've had the same thing on a few older vehicles, the only conclusion I can come to is that the battery "recovers" slightly when left and that's enough to kick the engine over if you're lucky. Not very scientific, but its common enough... New battery was probably enough to run the vehicle without any significant load on the system until now, sounds like the charging system was an issue prior to sale and the previous owner just whacked in a new battery rather than sort the problem :undecided: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) Clean commutator, it dose look a bit grimy, replace brushes, probably worn and there cheap enough, then re-polarise. Gennys are almost bomb proof bits of kit and unless seriously knackered easy to service. DO NOT RE-POLARISE WITH THE REGULATOR WIRED IN!! That gets very expensive on regulators. It would also be worth checking the obvoius, is the belt in good condition and are all the pulleys tight? The regulator can be a touchy bit of kit, clean all the contacts carfully with fine emery, but make sure evrything is scrupulosly clean before refitting the cover. There looks to be a fair amount of grime there as well, rember Electrickery is lazy! Dosen't like going through dirt. Polarisng info: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/gen.htm Edited August 17, 2011 by Tony B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond-t-steve Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is it my eyes or is the bolt on the fan belt adjuster strap look lose on the second picture down. it will not help with charging if it is and the fan belt is slipping. Steve.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 New battery was probably enough to run the vehicle without any significant load on the system until now, sounds like the charging system was an issue prior to sale and the previous owner just whacked in a new battery rather than sort the problem :undecided: Psychoman, I suspect that he didn't realise the problem was there, as he bought the battery in Jun before deciding to sell. However the vehicle had barely moved in the previous 2 years, and hadn't been started for 3 months before I went to see it for the first time. That said of course, you may be right, and he sold the vehicle on knowing there was a problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is it my eyes or is the bolt on the fan belt adjuster strap look lose on the second picture down. it will not help with charging if it is and the fan belt is slipping. Steve....Steve, I had some difficulty with the cover plate screw which was slightly corroded, so I slackened the adjuster off to move the generator so I could get better access. My 9 year son was watching, so I had to bite my tongue and curb my language when it looked like I was going to have a problem LOL The belt is a new one, and the tension had been fine, and no slipping had been occuring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Clean commutator, it dose look a bit grimy, replace brushes, probably worn and there cheap enough, then re-polarise. Gennys are almost bomb proof bits of kit and unless seriously knackered easy to service. DO NOT RE-POLARISE WITH THE REGULATOR WIRED IN!! That gets very expensive on regulators. It would also be worth checking the obvoius, is the belt in good condition and are all the pulleys tight? The regulator can be a touchy bit of kit, clean all the contacts carfully with fine emery, but make sure evrything is scrupulosly clean before refitting the cover. There looks to be a fair amount of grime there as well, rember Electrickery is lazy! Dosen't like going through dirt. Polarisng info: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/gen.htm Tony, thanks for that advise, and the excellent link. Much appeciated. I'll pick up some new contacts from Rex Ward tommorrow, to eliminate that potential problem area.Cheers Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond-t-steve Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's a relief, at least I don't have to go to Specsavers. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammell4199 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Hi Vulture, I had some problems with the charging on our Jeep a couple of years ago, i found this website which explains very well how automotive electrical systems work. http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/98.cfm You might also find the thread which i started helpful. http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?13062-Urgent-help-needed-testing-Willys-MB-charging-system-please Batteries i find are very peculiar things, and when they do go wrong there is usually no logical explanation for it. All the best, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychoman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Psychoman, I suspect that he didn't realise the problem was there, as he bought the battery in Jun before deciding to sell. However the vehicle had barely moved in the previous 2 years, and hadn't been started for 3 months before I went to see it for the first time. That said of course, you may be right, and he sold the vehicle on knowing there was a problem... To be fair, he may not have known what the problem was, what I meant was, to a lot of people swapping out a battery is the starting point when they have an issue, and if it runs subsequently they kinda stop looking (until the problem re-emerges!). Hopefully with the advice from the guys here you'll get sorted easily and quickly. Reminds me... god knows what we all did a few years ago before these forums existed. Recently changed a fuel gauge in the Pinz - the new gauge had completely different behind dash wiring, and was not obvious - without the resource available through the net I'd have struggled... so big thumbs up to the HMVF and related sites that help us all keep rolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) To be fair, he may not have known what the problem was, what I meant was, to a lot of people swapping out a battery is the starting point when they have an issue, and if it runs subsequently they kinda stop looking (until the problem re-emerges!). Hopefully with the advice from the guys here you'll get sorted easily and quickly. Reminds me... god knows what we all did a few years ago before these forums existed. Recently changed a fuel gauge in the Pinz - the new gauge had completely different behind dash wiring, and was not obvious - without the resource available through the net I'd have struggled... so big thumbs up to the HMVF and related sites that help us all keep rolling With my limited mechanical experience I must confess I would not have been brave enough to take on the 352 if it wasn't for the fact that forums such as the HMVF exist. After dropping by to see Rex Ward this afternoon, I have some nice new shiny parts to fit over the coming week Kind regards Vulture Edited August 18, 2011 by Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Hi Vulture, I had some problems with the charging on our Jeep a couple of years ago, i found this website which explains very well how automotive electrical systems work. http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/98.cfm You might also find the thread which i started helpful. http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?13062-Urgent-help-needed-testing-Willys-MB-charging-system-please Batteries i find are very peculiar things, and when they do go wrong there is usually no logical explanation for it. All the best, Richard Richard Thanks for the link and threads very interesting. Bit of an update on the position at this end. A friend of mine who is a RAF Electrical Engineer (with some experience of Generators) came round this afternoon, and we removed it for a closer inspection. Although his Multimeter showed all three connections on the Generator are fine and the brushes are in excellent condition, it would not turn when we tried to use it as a motor connected direct to the battery. He declared himself defeated by it, and there must be something else going on inside it all. Anyway, I've tracked down a company in Peterborough called C F Parkinson Ltd. Giving them a call it appears they have an oldish experienced chap called 'Ron' who has dealt with 353/352 Generators before. I am taking it over there on Monday for Ron to have a look at and provide an estimate for the repair. Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Probably sized bearings or if the shaft rottaes cleanly. It has lost polarisation. If Ron give you you 'what a numpty' pitying look, bear with him. :-D The outer coil relys on on a trace magnetic feild to operate, so if feild isn't there it won't work as a motor either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Success at this end !! After almost a weeks delay the Generator and Regulator were ready for pick-up, so I despatched Mrs Vulture and to go and collect them. Refitting last night, I went for main engine start and....Oh Yes, we have a positive reading on the Amp-meter for the first time. Beautiful Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 HURRAH!..........Alway nice to see somthing working again after having developed an Inconvienient fault! I have a simlar one to solve on a Bedford RL. She hadnt been run since Beltring last year! I charged up the Battery, Cranked her over to get fuel up to the Carb. She turned over & fired up on the button, BUT, the Red charging light is ON. Indicating NOT charging. I am assuming that as everything else was working fine before laying her up for a year. It WILL be either, sticky contacts in the Regulator Box (WD40 will sort that!) or sticking brushes in the Gennie. (WD40 again, IF, required) My Money is on the Regulator box!................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 HURRAH!..........Alway nice to see somthing working again after having developed an Inconvienient fault! I have a simlar one to solve on a Bedford RL. She hadnt been run since Beltring last year! I charged up the Battery, Cranked her over to get fuel up to the Carb. She turned over & fired up on the button, BUT, the Red charging light is ON. Indicating NOT charging. I am assuming that as everything else was working fine before laying her up for a year. It WILL be either, sticky contacts in the Regulator Box (WD40 will sort that!) or sticking brushes in the Gennie. (WD40 again, IF, required) My Money is on the Regulator box!................ ferretfixer Hope it turns out to be a quick and easy fix for you. Kind regards Vulture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 ferretfixer Hope it turns out to be a quick and easy fix for you. Kind regards Vulture Thank you kind Sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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