John Pearson Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 A few rambling thoughts I personally take a both more restrictive and liberal view to this: I never wear any uniform because I am not entitled to wear one: my dad was but I am not so I don't. Civilian black overalls and a beret with a button on in instead of a badge is as close as I will go. On the other hand, I would not seek to impose my views on others who can wear what they like. I cannot understand why someone would dress as a member of the SS? Is it because of a psycological need for kids to rebell? Sort of long hair in the 60's as a rebellion against parent's short back and sides? If it is, surely these re-enactors should do a bit of self analysis and stop doing it? Alternatively, do they actually believe in the views and tenets of these barbarians? If that were so, I would keep it quiet myself rather than advertising it. At the Severn Valley Railway 40's do in 2008 or 9, I saw in the distance someone wearing concentration camp "striped pyjamas" and I thought "oh my God, how can you?". As I got closer, I saw that the man had a distinct "hebrew" face which was even stranger. When I got close, I saw he had a sign round his kneck that simply said in big letters "WHY?". He went up to SS dressed re-enactors, faced them, made eye contact and waited until they looked down and walked away. I just had to shake him by the hand for his nerve. Maybe a few of these re-enactors thought again? The public certainly did! Isn't the single Japanese soldier wearing his own grandfather's preserved infantry equipment, not a camp guard re-enactors collection of stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnh Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 just as I was about to have foot in mouth moment...about to ramble on about living in a village with a Norman Church and remains of a Roman fort...how old am I ???:red: As with many other History based groups some 'Hard line' factions get involved and turn the whole thing into a motivational tool to promote their beliefs and policies. It is almost like an infiltration of an 'old guard' I had a rather shocking discussion with a gentleman dressed as a ss guard, he liked the uniform he liked the cammaraderie and absolutely revelled in the joy of upsetting and racialy abusing visitors to his display/domain . this gent waxed lyrical as to the very fact that his group was growing by the day and although they did not happen to follow the swastika, they believed fascism would one day rise again ??:undecided: What was that programme warnings from history or something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly Jeeper Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Very eloquent ChrisITA - esp the bit that starts, 'As for the argument...' For the other chap - the Romans weren't here 'in living memory'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnh Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Very eloquent ChrisITA - esp the bit that starts, 'As for the argument...' For the other chap - the Romans weren't here 'in living memory'... Neither were the Normans...hence foot in mouth moment ???:undecided: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingp Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 ok misunderstanding on my part :red: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The Germans have done a good, post-war, job of blaming all attrocities on the SS. The Heer were also involved. Is the OP also unhappy at seeing re-enactors in Russian uniforms? Maybe those in US para uniforms, US uniforms from the Vietnam era? Should be remove all "objectionable" items from our museums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 This discussion crops up every year around Beltring time. The arguments are trenchant and presented with sincerity and so it should be. But the whole thing is something of a revolving door. It spins round and people come in and go out - sometimes new members, sometimes old regular posters - even people like me who disappear for a year and then - hey presto! The debate remains the same. There are no "new" arguments. This does not mean you should not have your say - please do. It is all interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 ALthough the ss took part in the war and I too can not see the atraction they must be represented in History. However. Not in the scale seen at Beltring. There should have been a small SS contingent and a large whermacht contingent. As far as I know only one guy does Japanese and I thinkits importantthat he is not hounded out as his representation is just as equaly important as every other representation. What I do not understand is that W&P staff failed to enforce their rules in regardes to SS uniforms being worn away from the display. So Yes SS and Jap forces should be represented BUT in moderation. The extent that w&P allows this to happens will allways give it a bad press hence the BBC program. Belting is not called the Nazi Fest or Fash fest for nothing. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny666 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I dont hold anything bad in peoples views at all i just think that ruling out 'anything in living memory' is a bad idea as there are groups that portray other time periods and as such cant be ruled out of the grand scheme of things. Yes there are some very deranged people out there that spoil it all for the masses of re'enactors that purely do this represent the fighting man be they french, german, itallian, english, dutch whatever i do feel that it takes a certain amount of courage to understand what happens in war and accept that the SS or whever did do some horrible and nasty things but not all germans in a SS uniform are evil and wrong infact i have met german veterans who were in the SS and are nice people who were never part of any killings etc they were the elite of that time period and without someone showing this then why bother even keeping vehicles that were designed to kill? Isnt that the same as putting on a uniform? The uniform does not make you evil, the vehicle is not a weapon its all down to intent if there intent is to show off the uniform and state this is what a SS soldier wore so be it same as showing the fact of a tank designed solely for the purpose of killing other tanks and the crew Now yes i have rambled but i think it important that every aspect is discussed and from all what i have read its all a case of intent, i like many of my friends where a british army uniform with the intent of showing the fighting man NOT what the regiment/force/squadron did in times past' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 so the romans wernt here then ? Living memory , you notice. Specifically 30th June /1st July 1940 till 9th May 1945. I was with a German friend at an event, where there were a lot of 'German re-enactors' including SS. His reaction was total disgust. One thing that really annoyed him, none of the re-eanctors had even bothered to learn basic German. http://www.thisisjersey.co.uk/hmd/ This link may help you understand. The UK attitude to the Third Reich and it's memorabilia is very diffrent to the rest of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private mw Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 o probaly that no wars affect the uk then ! :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Neither were the Normans...hence foot in mouth moment ???:undecided: Er, I have to forgive you that. Remember some of the Norman's would have been my ancestors, and the Queens title as Duchess of Normandy pre dates her title as Queen of the United Kingdom. :-D I should also point out, there has been a Nazi Concentration Camp on UK soil in living memory . http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lager_Sylt. My own view -Fanatics are dangerous, no matter whose side they on. And yes, I feel very uncomfortable around those dressed in ww2 German uniform of any type. Most importantly if these views are not openly expressed from all sides, the whole thing , well it is still happening. Bear in mind by the widley held social standards of the time, if Hitler hadn't actually invaded Poland, he could well have been revered as one of the greatest statsemen of the 20th Century. Edited July 25, 2011 by Tony B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private mw Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 yes the war and peace show should just be american dressed soldiers only as it was them who won the war ! :yawn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Yes, at least they haven't started on the Naplionic wars...yet....( Mind you France was a freind of the American Colonists, they saw a profit in it) Do remember up to about 1900 it was France that was looked upon as UK's major enemy. It was only when the then new country of Germany started getting above it's station (Threatening profits!) that they became the 'enemy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnh Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Er, I have to forgive you that. Remember some of the Norman's would have been my ancestors, and the Queens title as Duchess of Normandy pre dates her title as Queen of the United Kingdom. :-D I should also point out, there has been a Nazi Concentration Camp on UK soil in living memory . http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lager_Sylt. My own view -Fanatics are dangerous, no matter whose side they on. And yes, I feel very uncomfortable around those dressed in ww2 German uniform of any type. Most importantly if these views are not openly expressed from all sides, the whole thing , well it is still happening. Bear in mind by the widley held social standards of the time, if Hitler hadn't actually invaded Poland, he could well have been revered as one of the greatest statsemen of the 20th Century. No forgiveness required Sir, as I said (totally mis-read the lifetime bit) I didn't realise that Beltring had been called such names etc, I was just shocked at the blokes candid remarks and the use of aggressive body language hiding behind an ss uniform. I have spoken many times with my uncle , he was captured by Waffen ss in Italy he was treated with a certain amount of respect before being sent north to stalag whatever (must get his tags out of the drawer) he said he had worse treatment at repatriation by the Russians having to work in a Polish salt mine for some time ! At least we can openly discuss this subject !! nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thanks John. This subject is always a good excuse for blow out round the camp fire. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Insidethearmour Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Slightly off topic for a moment, I thought the mismatch of accents to uniforms was downright hilarious. I heard Brummie 'Germans', German 'US Marines on Okinawa' and everything in between. Seems reenacting your own country is positively dull when there are all those foreign uniforms to wear! Worst outfit I saw this weekend; a civilian 'security' contractor in M4A4, webbing and Jeans. Perhaps he couldn't afford the fatigues? Perhaps he just likes dressing as an ex soldier that now earns a living as a 'private soldier' That one is positively metaphysical :confused: Getting back on topic, personally I did find the Croatian reenactors in slightly poor taste too. They had a sign basically defending that saying 'all wars are bad innit, this is edumacational' , basically the same argument the SS guys use, but I didn't learn anything at all from their presence or diorama beyond the fact they like black quite a lot. And that was a nasty war. They also had three kids with them, maybe mid teens, all with hardward, including one with an MG and one with a Barret 50 calibre sniper rifle. I think unwittingly they said more with their unintentional portrayal of child soldiers in modern war zones than the older members did with their trench A LOT of kids go to that show. Especially on the Wednesday 'Schools' day. I think it behoves all the reenactors with even the slightest whiff of controversy about their chosen area (SS, Heer, the guy I saw in RUC Riot Gear, the Soviets, all of it) to be ready, able and keen to explain to people, especially kids, the full history behind their area, and not just to wear the uniform and say 'look at our sweet original weapons and painstaking attention to clothing detail'. If they don't then they are glorifying by omission. If they do then they are more than justifying their presence, they are adding something educational and informative that our school system currently either cannot or does not want to, and therefore a very valuable thing indeed On a positive note, two members of Windhund came to my stand and we had a good chat (although neither of the swines bought anything - tightwad wermacht!) they were VERY clued up on their chosen unit, made no excuses for doing 'German' but were very open about everything in a well informed and grown up way. They definitely taught me that some of these guys are capable of doing this sort of thing very well and genuinely educating people in the process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 for what my two penneth is worth..... First off: whatever the uniform..... I don't think there is a place for them in the 'bar' after the 'show'. If you are serious about a 'real and true portrayal' of any soldier then thats fair enuff....but if you start marching about at night with a drink in your hand whilst still 'in costume' that makes you a proper prat and of quite probably questionable intelligence in my eyes. Second: It is entirely beyond me why anyone should wish to dress up as an SS soldier in anyway whatsoever....be it in any way ..... 'educational' or not. Thirdly: Please PLEASE!!!!! for God Almightys sakes!!!!! . .. lets not have any more CRAP along the lines of "lots of the SS were decent men who didn't know anything about what happened in the camps etc etc " I view anyone that spouts 'revisionist' tripe of any description such as above with absolute revulsion.... ......and if you like strutting about in an SS Uniform whilst claiming "they weren't all bad" ...??? then that mark you out as being as bad as the worst kind of vile racist moron and you are an ABSOLUTE BLOODY INSULT to the millions that died as a result of the Nazis..... and one more thing... Read you history.... The Wehrmacht weren't as white as snow either...A lot of the extermination work carried out earlier on in Barbarossa and also 'Police' actions in Greece and Italy and France and The Balkans was done by (ahem!) 'ordinary, decent German Soldiers of the Wehrmacht' Face facts....... All Germans at that time whether soldiers or not had a pretty damn good idea of what was going on in Hitlers Germany and also of what his plan was for the rest of Europe..... stop deluding yourself .....you would have had to have been a simpleton of the highest order not to have worked it out by about halfway through the war at the very latest.... ........ PS: and to finish on a lighter note. ..Yes I agree with someone that posted earlier on.... ..why oh why do so many folk want to dress up as GIs?...whats wrong with portraying a British /Canadian /Polish Unit ????? Its gotta come down to the fancy Uniforms I reckon... as the late great Spike Milligan once said in one of his war memoir books... "No matter how hard a British soldier tried to look smart when going out on the pull , next to a Yank in his fancy uniform he always looked like a sack of sh*t tied up in the middle" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Some of us do Brtish re-enactment! Mind you it would look daft me being an infantryman, so I dress up as RASC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Insidethearmour Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 To be honest, I might be tempted to do British reenactment myself if it wasn't for fact that I have a physique more suited to dad's army than frontline infantry. Still, such concerns didn't seem to bother some of the SS guys (not exactly the picture of Aryan physical perfection if you know what I mean ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Hey no offence intended cos I know an awful lot of you do 'British' and well done to you :-) ! Incidentally if I ever own a Sherman ...usually seen as a 'Yank' tank I guess..she'd be done up as one from a British Armoured Reg.. ...but it does nark me ...especially to see so many 'American' Jeeps and hardly ever one carrying British Army markings.. ..there'll be plenty along shortly to prove me wrong though I expect ! hahahahah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny666 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Hey no offence intended cos I know an awful lot of you do 'British' and well done to you :-) ! Incidentally if I ever own a Sherman ...usually seen as a 'Yank' tank I guess..she'd be done up as one from a British Armoured Reg.. ...but it does nark me ...especially to see so many 'American' Jeeps and hardly ever one carrying British Army markings.. ..there'll be plenty along shortly to prove me wrong though I expect ! hahahahah! there are british jeeps *shudder* but they are marked as airbourne and nothing else hence why i do post war british and i dress to show the royal marines that would have served in my vehicle. but at the end of the day a healthy discussion is just as good as anything its pointless going around the houses people do it and most of us cant work out why neither can i but heyho lets just carry on enjoying the hobby we have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I use an American vehicle for my re-enactments! Because, if you've driven the British vehicles of the time, you know why Hey hey USA! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny666 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I use an American vehicle for my re-enactments! Because, if you've driven the British vehicles of the time, you know why Hey hey USA! :-D always one lol hey i have but i dont like american kit dunno why lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 I am very pleased that I started this topic this year and thank most of you for your views. It may be a well exercised topic but it still needs airing. I do support the statement that wearing SS and WW2 Japanese military uniform 'sanitises' the image for those too young to remember the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis and Japanese and their allies. We must never forget what these monsters did in the name of Germany and Japan - perhaps many troops from all the armies carried out criminal acts BUT it was not their nation's policy. Nazi German policy was to exterminate people they despised, and the Japanese WW2 military's attitude to prisoners was appalling and inhuman. Please let us never forget these atrocities and continue to campaign against our fellow men and women who like to dress up in uniforms representing these despicable regimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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