German SS and Japanese Army re-enactors and equipment

[Jonny666]

Please let us never forget these atrocities and continue to campaign against our fellow men and women who like to dress up in uniforms representing these despicable regimes.

 

whoa hold your horses there, who is campaigning for them to stop? i for one certainly aint.

 

lets not forget that lots of people died for something called "Freedom Of Speech" if someone wants to dress as a SS soldier be it in bad taste or not they have the right to do so.

 

if you really have such a major disliking of this why not go and email the second battle group who were there at the war and peace your concerns and see what they have to say as at the moment this is very much a one sided battle

[rambo1969]

My understanding is that SS uniform is banned at w+p. So why is it not enforced?

[Paul Drake]

Very interesting thread.

I have been a Westerner most of my life, passionately interested in Cowboys and the history of the USA, including the Civil War. Occasionally I will attend a Western weekend when I will dress authenticall, all my dress is reproduction, but with original materials and to old patterns.

For seven years I edited the magazine of the British Westerners Association. One of my editorials concerned the fact that some Texas schools were teaching a "revised" history of the battle of the Alamo so as not to upset Mexicans. Tosh. PC maybe, but children being lied to by adults responsible for their futures is hardly the best way.

I freely admit that many of the members were simply grown ups playing at cowboys, and a lot of them could not even tell you the name of Gene Autry's horse! I suspect there are many re-enactors at military shows who are just "playing soldiers".

Banning SS and Japanese uniforms from shows and revising history will have ad adverse effect. Forgetting the lessons of World War One allowed World War Two to take place. If everyone turns up in British and American uniforms, won't the public wonder who you were fighting, what there dress and equipment looked like, and why were you fighting them? Unless of course you merely want to show how these soldiers lived, in which case you need to get rid of your modern cigarette packets and bottles of Fairy Liquid in your camp.

I am one of those fortunate enough to have never been in actual real combat. I also have a knowledge of the conditions of war from various times, which allows me to explain to anyone asking what it might have been like. All of us have a duty to educate those who don't know. It is not right to deny history, if we do, e will not give anyone the knowledge to deal with the future.

Those of you who would ban "offensive" uniforms, trying to persuade others that those bad people didn't exist may be considered just as bad as those who exhibit those uniforms and deny that Nazi Germany was a bad place, that not all of them were bad.

There are more people in the world now who are too young to remember World War Two than there are those who do. They cannot have known persecution, occupation, abuse and maltreatment at the hands of an enemy. However those, who do must not be allowed to perpetuate their hatred and infuse it into the young.

Are you going to ban Russian uniforms too? For over fifty years they were the enemy, capable of destroying our country in a matter of minutes.

Notwithstanding those people who have suffered as a result of war, the rest of us must be tolerant. We must show history as it truly was, not how we want it to look because it's PC or nice to have it that way.

True, the Germans and Japanese were brutal, but so were the Norsemen and the Romans, and Boidicae was no saint! To allow hatred to colour all our thinking will seep into children and result in future hatred. Just Look at Islamic Jihad, Northern Ireland and the British Defence League.

We must also be tolerant of newcomers and not frown upon jeans and tee shirts. Not everyone can be expected to have a full kit and uniform the moment they join our interest, indeed few can afford it. If we do not allow this we will discourage newcomers and our hobby will die away.

We must not allow history to be repeated.

This is all my humble opinion, and someone fought and died so that I could express it, for which I am eternally thankful. No apologies to Native Americans that I still think of them as Indians.

All this typing is thirsty work so am getting down off this very tall soapbox and having a cup of tea.

[Adrian Barrell]

One of the best and well balanced pieces I have read on the subject. Nicely put Paul. :thumbsup:

[Graham]

Re Paul Darke's thoughtful comments. I agree we must not bury history - this is my point, I want to stop the people dressing in SS and WW2 Japanese uniforms at events like War & Peace because to the young and uninformed 'they' seem to be like everyone else, a sanitised version of history. As an extension of Paul's thoughts let us tell the true story of SS and Japanese genocide and atrocities.

[Tony B]

I did get asked by a young boy at Chatham after a very succesful 'Punch up' with an 'escaped' German Paratropper, 'Why do you hate the German's?' Sometimes when your asked for a quick answer you speack the truth, even to yourself. The answer I gave, 'I don't hate the German's, but I hate what some of them did'.

[fv1609]

I used to be opposed to German re-enacting, largely because I thought it may cause offence to veterans. But I had to reconsider that on the basis that many of them are themselves veterans of the British armed forces, albeit of more recent years. They have risked their lives for Queen & Country, something that I have not had to do, so perhaps I was not in a position to be critical of it.

 

I think the worry for many people is the anxiety that maybe, just maybe, in some dark corners there maybe elements who admire the political aspirations that these forces represented. That is the real concern I think & something that is exploited by the media. Sadly local newspapers reporting on a military vehicle show will prefer to promote this anxiety by photoing the Germans in preference to other displays or even vehicles.

[antarmike]

I am not going into a long diatribe about the Japanese, but just browse these links and decide for yourselves if we really want to see Japanese Re-enactors...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://www.pacificwar.org.au/WarCrimeIntro.html

[rambo1969]

Nicely put paul.

The problem is not with the german army, it's with the SS.

I have no problem with german army reenactors, it's the re enactors who wear SS stuff.

Shows ban SS uniform, but don't enforce it.

[berna2vm]

A few rambling thoughts

I personally take a both more restrictive and liberal view to this: I never wear any uniform because I am not entitled to wear one: my dad was but I am not so I don't. Civilian black overalls and a beret with a button on in instead of a badge is as close as I will go. On the other hand, I would not seek to impose my views on others who can wear what they like.

 

I cannot understand why someone would dress as a member of the SS? Is it because of a psycological need for kids to rebell? Sort of long hair in the 60's as a rebellion against parent's short back and sides? If it is, surely these re-enactors should do a bit of self analysis and stop doing it? Alternatively, do they actually believe in the views and tenets of these barbarians? If that were so, I would keep it quiet myself rather than advertising it.

 

At the Severn Valley Railway 40's do in 2008 or 9, I saw in the distance someone wearing concentration camp "striped pyjamas" and I thought "oh my God, how can you?". As I got closer, I saw that the man had a distinct "hebrew" face which was even stranger. When I got close, I saw he had a sign round his kneck that simply said in big letters "WHY?". He went up to SS dressed re-enactors, faced them, made eye contact and waited until they looked down and walked away. I just had to shake him by the hand for his nerve. Maybe a few of these re-enactors thought again? The public certainly did!

 

Isn't the single Japanese soldier wearing his own grandfather's preserved infantry equipment, not a camp guard re-enactors collection of stuff?

I do agree with the sentiment expressed here. I always feel uncomfortable in ANY military uniform simply because I don't have the right to wear the uniform that brave men wore. I don't feel worthy as I have never fired a shot in anger or indeed been shot at. They were all brave (combat troops) whatever uniform they were wearing and whether they were fighting for a worthy cause or otherwise.

About the Waffen SS, they did not possess exclusive rights to atrocities and the regular Wehrmacht behaved with more decency and adhered to the Geneva convention at least as well as us or any of our allies. They didn't systematically rape women....

[Panzer nut]

I am not going into a long diatribe about the Japanese, but just browse these links and decide for yourselves if we really want to see Japanese Re-enactors...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://www.pacificwar.org.au/WarCrimeIntro.html

 

So are you saying that because of these that they should be wiped from history. Lets follow your train of thought. I have two words for you.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

 

2 of the biggest war crimes ever commited and gues who they were commited by.. Yes the Americans but Ultimatly, US the British as we were part of the Allied force fighting them.

 

So before you get on your high horse remember those two cities and those civilians that died from flash Burns that cooked living flesh, drowned in the tidal rivers because they were too weak to move, The children who died from radiation sickness. And the British POW's within the blast area who went to help after wards.

 

Therefore we should not represent the Americans as they are war criminals and we should not represent the British as they were complicite in these war crimes.

 

So I say Yes the Japanese should be represented.

Jon

[afvnut75]

I have been reading this article with great interest and on my first visit to war and peace seeing the various german reenactors made me think as to how near we came to german armed forces fighting in our countryside and losing our way of life and our freedom to a dictator but my attitude on wether we should allow the uniforms of people that committed attrocites is that we need to remember what they did and that we shouldnt sanitise what happened in history or if we do how far would we want to take it im sure the avro lancaster in the bbmf upsets a few germans for what they did over dresden and cologne are we going to remove all ww2 aircraft from the publics view ? just in case it upsets a few !

 

Personaly military vehicle shows need to show all aspects of military history not just onesided aspects or we will deny future generations the history of our time and forget what some of our family members did for us in the decades that came before .

 

 

And if the day ever came that i was lucky enough to ever own a piece of german ww2 armour i would take it to a show and wear the correct uniform to go with the vehicle i would wear that uniform for display purposes and not to antagonise or upset fellow entusiasts or the general public ,

If you are upset by seeing army uniforms of different nationalitys and most of them have committed attrocitys in varying degrees no armed force in everybodys eyes is squeaky clean as far as their historys are concerned, Then why are you at the show in the first place !

Most of the people there that wear these uniforms like playing soldiers and having the chance to realise a battle for themselves and to be part of something historically authentic and enhancing the vehicle that they came in on thats all Granted that there maybe those want to project themselves politicaly but these people should not be encouraged if they persist with issues that could lead to extremeist antics and so forth .

 

 

You may or may not agree with what ive written but it is just my view point on the matter !

[David B.]

My interest is in the vehicles and their accoutrements. I am happy to see vehicles displayed with their correct kit and sometimes,if time and space permits in a display which is set in a camp/depot or diorama setting. In this context I don't mind articles of clothing - a BD blouse draped over the back of a campaign chair for example or a steel helmet hanging ready for use in the cab of a truck.

 

I also like to see weaponry displayed on racks and uniforms on mannequins in a museum setting - indoors or out. Comparative collections of jerricans,ammunition boxes etc. either displayed in a "trench" or all together are also interesting to me.

 

That is however where it ends, I would rather people set up their display and then step out of the picture. So few uniformed people would actually look the part in a black and white photo and with the possible exception of a motorycle being ridden in a parade where modern protective clothing positively detracts from the overall picture,I feel a person in the frame adds nothing.

 

I don't feel the need to belong to organised groups and I'm not too keen on the SS/Japanese argument, I do believe that the freedom to do as you want to though is paramount. However if the majority of public opinion does not want to see what is perceived as a sinister,less than wholesome uniformed presence then any bans or restrictions should be enforced and a blind eye not to be turned by event organisers for commercial reasons.

 

If ever, in my (inconspicuous) clothing,I am asked "where is your uniform" my reply is that I am not on display.

Edited July 26, 2011 by David B.

[Johnh]

Well coming from a family with a long military history, i guess we are all war criminals. On friday I will make my yearly pilgrimage to Salerno to see where Edgar was captured (KOYLI) his words resound in my ears " I gave no quarter I didn't expect to receive any either" November I will visit Koksidje and lay flowers at the grave of Phil's rear gunner (Lancaster) PC Gore only survivor to bail out end of may 1944 ( died of old age thank God)" would I fly over Germany and do it all again ? damn right I would" I have been to Flanders to see where my Grandfather served with the Royal Horse Artillery," We shelled till we ran out of stuff to bang in the breach !" Been to the South Atlantic once remembered old mates who didn't come back the list is endless However War is War we are the servants or were servants of the great and good, but I say again, do not ignore the underlying messages that are being sent out by these factions that hide behind the true historic enthusiasts.

 

I guess I am still a bit 'green'? 'wet behind the ears' ? sublimely ignorant to what realy goes on at these shows ?

 

 

Oh well that's my last post on this subject, but am glad that we have had the chance to debate and air our views !!

[Markheliops]

I must say - I'm bored with this argument.

 

As Snapper stated - this argument crops up every year with new members having their say on the rights and wrongs of SS / Jap re-enactors.

 

I have replied in length to this subject maybe two years ago and I think put across a fairly balance view so I can't be bothered to write it all down again - however:

 

All armies of all nationalities have committed war crimes from as far back as the history records go right up to the present day.

 

If some forum members feel so strongly about this subject - maybe we should ban all re-enactor groups.

 

The Russians were by far the worst for war crimes against civilians and military personnel so maybe we should shout about Russian re-enactors.

 

Then we can start on the Serbian and Croatian re-enactors as the crimes happening in Bosnia weren't all that pleasant either as I recall from personal experience.

 

Then we can start on our own British forces and the Yanks - just as guilty as other forces during the two world wars and before.

 

Not all German soldiers, yes SS included were war criminals. As stated previously, the SS were a fierce fighting unit and some of their ranks were the finest soldiers in WW2. Yes, some of the SS committed war crimes as documented.

 

I find it bizarre how little in mentioned of the Russian Army and its soldiers when people go on about war crimes.

 

I also tend to think people who shout the loudest have never been in a war zone and have no idea what they are going on about.

 

All in all - this forum is about the preservation and use of ex-military vehicles - not the rights and wrongs of re-enactors. I have no issue with people voicing opinions on any military related subjects but there is a difference between having a discussion and having a serious swipe at other people who do something different to our own hobby.

 

I suspect some people could have a serious gripe about people mounting 50 cal heavy machine guns on our vehicles - after all - a heavy machine gun’s purpose is to kill as many people as possible.

 

Markheliops

[Adrian Barrell]

maybe we should ban all re-enactor groups.

 

Markheliops

 

Good idea...... there would be loads of room at Beltring then.

[Marmite!!]

As said been down this road many times, plenty of threads on this stating for and against.

 

We have members of the forum who are serious MV collectors & restorers who are also SS reenactors, some of the coments here could be seen as flaming which is against forum rules, as such this thread is now locked.