gazzaw Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Hi I've just had a Radiation /Radioactive Hazard inspection on the site where I store my vehicles (MOD) and the inspector has told me to get rid of all my dials, speedo and a spitfire compass I have on them as they are full of hazardous materials. As they are mostly original and I don't want to lose them is there an alternative I can get done to render safe, e.g. to get the old lumonescent paint from the dials taken off and a safe substitute in place of it. Anyone came across this before? Regards Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Not personally, but I know why. It's the Radium that was used in marking up the original dials, and as far as I know there is no safe / compliant method of reworking / decontaminating them, given the half life. I use these extensively on my vehicles, but since I spend minutes per year exposed to them I'm not overly concerned. I tend not to dismantle or maintain anything that would have had Radium on it originally, but I don't throw it away either. (that's probably some sort of offence these days) Fortunately there is a safe fix for the problem. You can replace all the instruments and dials on your jeep and truck dashboards with modern high-quality reproductions, and just put the originals in safe storage somewhere - off your site, obviously, just treat them like asbestos. You're Glasgow-based? I would have thought you knew about this stuff, as I'm sure there was one factory in the Glasgow area before / during WW2 that did all these Radium-painted dials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Bovington came across this problem a few years ago, I don't know how they got round it. I remember there was a phase when any Larkspur equipment with meters had to be decommissioned by removing the meters. I've put a Geiger counter over some meters I had, but the count rose but not dramatically. As you might imagine doing the same test on any wartime meters, then the counter went into overdrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzaw Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Thanks Gordon and Clive Was aware of the hazards but as the vehicles are not used everyday and very infrequently thought it not to be much of a hazard. Obviously if I started digging around in them and opened them up (hence the reason why I never carry out the refurb of old instruments that you see in some step by step guides in various forums etc) and have always treated with respect. I will need to source modern repro speedo for the Chevy CMP and keep my compass and other guages etc off site. The MOD are worried about them being there although no-one except us owners are near the vehicles but they tend to blanket everything and want all removed etc. I think it was Barr & Stroud who did the instruments during WW2 etc, not far from where I live. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 A scrap dealer I know once had a bale refused at the transfer station, because it set off the geiger counter. He had to split the bale in two, bring both halves back and try again. He repeated this twenty odd times, by splitting the "Dirty" half of the split bale until he found ..........a Spitfire gauge. There is enough radtiation from one of these to be deteceted in complete bale of scrap steel. You would have thoght, being towards the middle it would have been shielded. There must have been some shielding effect, since each time the bale was split, the reading got higher. I think it has to be said there is a fair bit of radition in this sort of gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) IIRC all the GMC CCKW´s which were sold off from Netherlands Army war reserve stock in the 1980s had to have the instruments removed. As they were supplied under the MDAP scheme, they were formally handed back to the US Government on whose behalf they were auctioned off. Before the Dutch government was allowed to do so, they had to be be put back in serviceable condition, which included overhauling brakes etc. but also removing the radioactive gauges. Attached goes a photo of a CMP Chevrolet C60L for sale at a dealer in the Netherlands. If you look closely you will see a yellow sticker over the main gauge which states "VOORZICHTIG RADIOAKTIEF" - careful, radioactive. Maybe for the UK MoD this is an acceptable way of managing the danger on your truck, at least until a replacement can be sourced? HTH, Hanno Edited October 27, 2009 by mcspool spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) The CMP gauge is an interesting case. If it is the early full civilian gauge block then it shouldn't have Radium on it anyway, so no problem. You can get replacement faces for these early ones from (Keith?) on the Maple Leaf Up Forum, but since he re-finishes originals I'm not sure if that would entirely solve the problem. Postage from Oz shouldn't be too much for a gauge face plate. If it is the later type with the round military instruments as far as I know the modern jeep / Dodge repros will swap straight in. The water temperature gauge repro comes with one or more adapters which should fit the head. You probably already know, but on CMPs like the one pictured above, it isn't just the speedo that has Radium on it - all the gauges do. Edited October 27, 2009 by Gordon_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 We had trouble with a bunch of surplus Ptarmigan kit for the same reason. In the end a dodgy guy with a Transit took it away for us :rofl: Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 This has reminded me of one of these radiation checks, many years ago. Someone must have suddenly realised about the guages. The AEC Militant Mk1 lorries were found to have radioactive air pressure guages, so they stuck a yellow warning label over the glass, making it impossible to read the brake pressure.........now what was more dangerous? Another incident was when doing one of these checks in the Instrument shop, the meter read high around the sink. This was because many years before, when this paint was used on meter faces, the personnel used to wash their brushes out in the sink. The drains were all dug up and all spoil was sealed in steel drums and taken away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radek Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I have bought for my brothers GPW this tipe of spark plugs http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/sparkplugs.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotBed Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 if this is so bad how are all the spitfires, hurricanes etc flying with original dials ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzaw Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 But does the fact they are high or off the scale mean that they have degraded over time (apart from obvious changing colour, more brittle etc) or are they same (in radiation levels) as they would have been back then? Obviously if they are still sealed and behind glass etc there is little risk of particles or dust and should be treated /handled as for asbestos and not poked around with etc. Unless you are living with them next to you for extended periods I believe there is little risk to us in their present state. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 If you think it is dangerous to sit near the dials, spare a thought for the girls who used to paint them, often licking the brush to obtain a fine point:shocked: http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewroberts.1953 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 lots of WW2 radios etc, had this sort of paint on the front panel. The 62 set being a prime example, but anything which can be luminised with ultraviolet light is the same. We had lots of these to re-work, and in the end new panels were made as the hazards were so high. The whole lot was put in think wall steel boxes, and put on a truck and sent to Drigg. We also has a couple of compass's which had a glass smashed. The chap who was working with them was taken to hospital, his nose was scrubbed out, he was scrubbed top to toe with high pressuse water, and give a whole body radioation check. The bench he was working on was dismantaled in a tent, with guys in full suits. And again, the whole lot was sent to Drigg. Radium paint is bl**dy awful stuff, but safe as long as you leave it alone. and you keep it at a reasonable distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 If you think it is dangerous to sit near the dials, spare a thought for the girls who used to paint them, often licking the brush to obtain a fine point:shocked: http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm I met one of these girls. she had two heads twelve, arms, & fifteen legs.....:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I thought the factory in Scotland was a watch manufactuer (Timex)? I seem to remember seeing a programe some years ago showing woman on the production line applying the radium paint by hand. Not surprisingly they were getting the paint all over their hands and round their mouths where some were holding the brushes. This was obviously causing an increase in the number of cancers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) But does the fact they are high or off the scale mean that they have degraded over time (apart from obvious changing colour, more brittle etc) or are they same (in radiation levels) as they would have been back then? Obviously if they are still sealed and behind glass etc there is little risk of particles or dust and should be treated /handled as for asbestos and not poked around with etc. Unless you are living with them next to you for extended periods I believe there is little risk to us in their present state. Gary Radiation falls with time. Anyone know the half life of radium? Edited October 28, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) 1602 years apparently. in other words after 1602 years (from painting date)the dials will be half as radioactive as they were when they were painted. After 3204 years (from apainting date) they will be a quarter as radioactice as when painted etc.... Edited October 29, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 If you think it is dangerous to sit near the dials, spare a thought for the girls who used to paint them, often licking the brush to obtain a fine point:shocked: http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm Some actually painted their own teeth to give the boyfriends a scare! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) http://www.roger-russell.com/jeffers/radiumdials.htm http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/radionuclides/radium.html#protectmyself http://www.rerowland.com/dial_painters.htm Edited October 28, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianScottish Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 http://www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/LuminisersLtd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fesm_ndt Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 With radiation there is 2 aspects.. - radiation exposure (off the top of my head you are allowed as civis 2.5 microSV/hour) if the dials emit more than that you have a problem. Thats at where you would be sitting not the dial as the closer you get the higher the reading even low strength looks high if you put the meter on it as inverse square law rule. This is further why the girls licking the brushes had issues as contact with skin is obviously the highest dose level. Exposure biggest concern is gamma output in Sv - radiactive contamination, is the more serious concern as we are talking about particulate matter which can lodge in your body and emit. Gamma is a problem but Alpha is much more problematic internally. A lot of military alloys such as Thorium magnesium are also radioactive..... seeing UH-1 helecopter engines sectioned in museums make me wonder... so the advice dont open them or sniff the dust is good advice main problem is most 'safety' or 'inspectors' dont know anything about radiation and possibly a small issue becomes a big issue, for nothing. If you have even been injected with radiactive dye for xrays... you will emit over the legal limit for about 8 hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Funnily enough I saw a very similar thread on ARRSE just today discussing the differences between versions of one compass or another and the answer was that the early models were illuminated by Radium while the later ones were illuminated by Trilux. Oh and two times a half life of 1602 years is 3204 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Funnily enough I saw a very similar thread on ARRSE just today discussing the differences between versions of one compass or another and the answer was that the early models were illuminated by Radium while the later ones were illuminated by Trilux. Oh and two times a half life of 1602 years is 3204 years. Okay Typo, but no one can agree the half life. some have it at 1602, some at 1620 and a wole lot of other figures are out there. 1690 being one of the more poular figures. What it means to us is the radiation is virtually unchanged 60 years after painting. Edited October 29, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fesm_ndt Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Quatam physics :coffee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-powered_lighting I had to think about it for a bit, Trilux is created by Tritium. Has a halflife of 12.36 years Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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