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Rania

Rolls Royce Armoured Car

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The front tyre size is for a 23" rim which was used by Dennis (8 stud) until 20" rims superseded them in the early 30's. Hard to get that size in the heavier duty truck version. I know because I am after a set!

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At least the absence of front brakes is authentic for a pre-1923 Rolls-Royce.

I'm told that at the time RR considered front brakes to be dangerous things since they enabled the driver to lock the front wheels!

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18 hours ago, Citroman said:

Nice beast, front wheels look like Michelins that were used on the Citroen U23 trucks.

U23 wheels.  99.9% sure they are the ones I need.  Thank you. Now to find some.....

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15 hours ago, Tony B said:

Who cares? Getting running for 11/11/2018 That isjust gorgeous!

Hi, I   would love to but can't commit as I need to sort out MOT as she's on a Q plate. This is why I need wheels  and possibly brakes sorted.  Cheers

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On 10/10/2018 at 1:04 PM, Richard Farrant said:

The engine is a Bedford 214 3.5 litre.

Now  - I can see  BEDFORD  pressed in the top (rear) of the rocker cover  ,  I am so thick - part illegible but was convinced it was  FORD  !

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The original RR's  had spoked wheels  then   changed in 1920 to Miichelin solid wheels.  The  vehicle has  3 different  wheel types  and 2 differenr rim/tyre sizes. so I hope the  Cltreon has 8" hole centers.  The originals were solid.  All ( except the bedfords) have been cut about to fit. 8" hole centers  is critical. 

RearWheel-LR.jpg

Tyres3.png

20181005_090149.jpg

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Rania,

Just to be clear, in your drawing above, does the 'D' dimension refer to the pitch diameter of the wheel studs (in which case it would be the distance between opposite ones), or does it refer to the distance as shown, from one to the next but one ? It is much more conventional to specify the diameter of the circle that the studs are on, ie from one stud to the one furthest from it, ie directly opposite it. If you are going to modify wheels to fit your hubs you will need to measure both the pitch circle and the diameter of the hub that locates the wheel rather more accurately than you can with a tape measure !

Sorry to be pedantic !

David

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20 minutes ago, David Herbert said:

Rania,

Just to be clear, in your drawing above, does the 'D' dimension refer to the pitch diameter of the wheel studs (in which case it would be the distance between opposite ones), or does it refer to the distance as shown, from one to the next but one ? It is much more conventional to specify the diameter of the circle that the studs are on, ie from one stud to the one furthest from it, ie directly opposite it. If you are going to modify wheels to fit your hubs you will need to measure both the pitch circle and the diameter of the hub that locates the wheel rather more accurately than you can with a tape measure !

Sorry to be pedantic !

David

Hi David, I think the D dimension is actually supposed to be the pitch diameter, as the left hand grey line extends through one stud to the one below, which doesn't make it easy to see.

STEVE.

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Hi David,   It is hole center to center. The 1920  RR  models were fittel with Michelin steel wheels but I'm not sure my hubs are the same dimensions

I fear adding  drum brakes will  increase the front axle  width so requiring dish wheels like the original bedford ones. or  replacement front axle.

I attach photos of front/rear wheel depth  so you see the issue.  Incorrect fromt hubs fitted?

20181010_110225.jpg

20181010_110216.jpg

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1 hour ago, Citroman said:

Studs distances are measured diagonally normally center to center holes.

I did it this way:   12 0'clock to 6 O'clock.   I'ver changed the bad black line colour so I hope its clearer.

 

 

studs.jpg

Edited by Rania

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I think we just have an issue of how the dimension is shown on Rania's drawing. It shows measuring from the studs at 10 to 2 o'clock. Continuing the LH dimension line down to the 8 o'clock stud changes nothing as it is directly below the 10 o'clock one. If one wanted to show the dimension from the 12 to 6 o'clock studs one would take the dimension lines out horizontaly and then mark the vertical distance between them. If one wanted to show the distance between the 8 and 2 o'clock ones one would draw the dimension lines at 30 degrees to the left of vertical and mark the distance between them.

Alternatively one could just say that the centres of the studs are on a circle (known as the pitch circle) of whatever diameter, which would apply regardless of how many studs there are. The explanation of measuring odd number studs in the left image above might serve if you were roughly comparing wheels but it would be idiotic to use it to specify what you need as it is very inaccurate. How inaccurate depends on if there are 3 / 5 / 7 etc studs but that is not mentioned. It is just wrong !! And they are not always in inches either, nor round numbers !! Grrr...

David

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2 hours ago, David Herbert said:

I think we just have an issue of how the dimension is shown on Rania's drawing. It shows measuring from the studs at 10 to 2 o'clock. Continuing the LH dimension line down to the 8 o'clock stud changes nothing as it is directly below the 10 o'clock one. If one wanted to show the dimension from the 12 to 6 o'clock studs one would take the dimension lines out horizontaly and then mark the vertical distance between them. If one wanted to show the distance between the 8 and 2 o'clock ones one would draw the dimension lines at 30 degrees to the left of vertical and mark the distance between them.

Alternatively one could just say that the centres of the studs are on a circle (known as the pitch circle) of whatever diameter, which would apply regardless of how many studs there are. The explanation of measuring odd number studs in the left image above might serve if you were roughly comparing wheels but it would be idiotic to use it to specify what you need as it is very inaccurate. How inaccurate depends on if there are 3 / 5 / 7 etc studs but that is not mentioned. It is just wrong !! And they are not always in inches either, nor round numbers !! Grrr...

David

 

Quote

Hi David, There are 6 studs -  drawing not scaled. The yellow line line  goes past the one at 10 O'clock to the next one at 8 o'clock. Sorry  this is not clear.

 

 

Edited by Rania

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Rotating the wheel by 30 degrees (in either direction) would have enabled a clearer representation, but we are not all technical drawing experts. Anyway, it seems we now understand what is intended.

Steve.

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Just my 2 penneth worth.

The rear wheel with holes in it is Dennis. Same as fitted to their trailer pumps.

The front wheels are simply 23 inch rim Sankey wheels, as fitted to a lot of vintage lorrys. 33x5's as you note (33 (OD) - (2x5 (height) = 23 rim) And they are 8 stud, not 6. There is an adaptor between the 6 stud hub, and 8 stud wheel. If it were mine, Id put the adaptor between the wheel and the hub, not in front of the adaptor. It would look more accurate in wheel terms, but it would bring them further out, may have wing issues.

 

 

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:12 AM, Rania said:

It's a bit of a bodge I think. I suspect the 'H' reg  was used to get the 'Q' plate as the Bedford makers plate is screwed to a wooden bulkhead with 4 different screws and the Bedford chassis number is  probably welded  in.   The chassis is ancient - 1920's in my view as no front brakes were ever fitted.. 

I'll upload another photo showing  more 

I remember as a student visiting the Luton factory in 1989, which by then was AWD trucks; they were still producing export "J" type trucks with no front brakes for export sale.

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The tyre size you refer to as 23 inch. Is this a recent tyre size where the original size would have been 24 inch?

 24 inch being a common size in the 1920's

Trying to find 24 inch tyres that are usable is a problem for the restorations here.

 Doug 

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