German SS and Japanese Army re-enactors and equipment

[Graham]

I visited the excellent War & Peace Show for the first time this year. An amazing wide range of equipment, weapons and people dressing up in army clothes. BUT I was disgusted to see for sale and people dressed up in German SS uniform and WW2 Japanese Army uniform. The horrors perpetrated by the SS and Japanese Army are so awful that I am appalled that people wish to dress up in representation of these troops. We must never forget what these people did to our forbears. I overheard a couple challenge a man dressed in German uniform - I hope more will do this and hopefully the organisers of the next 'War & Peace' Show, and similar shows, will ban all representations of the SS and Japanese military.

Graham

[Willyslancs]

i agree mate , thought this for a while , ...........

[private mw]

i know what your saying graham and we only visit as day visitors. all wars have horror stories but this is a great event and i do like to see the vehicles and uniforms and it would be like visiting a western show with no indians , :-)

[Adrian Barrell]

Whilst I too cannot see why you would want to dress up as SS, or many of the displays frankly, to ban it would be doing a disservice to the very freedoms that were so hard won.

[private mw]

i agree adrian my uncle bob who is no longer with us who never would speak of the war and what he had seen. the only thing he ever did say is how cruel the japanese was , but it makes the show like said before cowboys and indians and cops and robbers there is always another side :undecided:

[flyingp]

this is interesting

[chevpol]

Whilst I agree, who would want to dress up as SS or Japanese? But if they wernt there, wouldnt you only be telling half the story?

 

Its the same as dressing up as Victorian Soldiers, dont forget, it was the British in South Africa that invented the "concentration camp".

 

You cant "sanitize" history, or else our descendants would perpetuate the horrors themselves.

 

Mark

[haybaggerman]

Whilst I agree, who would want to dress up as SS or Japanese? But if they wernt there, wouldnt you only be telling half the story?

 

Its the same as dressing up as Victorian Soldiers, dont forget, it was the British in South Africa that invented the "concentration camp".

 

You cant "sanitize" history, or else our descendants would perpetuate the horrors themselves.

 

Mark

 

I think that is a well made and interesting point. However, I think there is thin line between acknowledging and representing what happened and trivialising it by simply dressing up as bad guys. Perhaps it depends how its done.

[Scarab]

I'm going to have to go with the controversial side on this one.

 

The importance is always in telling the full story, if only part of the story is represented and told to younger generations then we may very well forget the reasons that conflicts are fought in the first place.

 

As long as the emphasis is on education and remembrance then I think all sides should be shown.

[andym]

You cant "sanitize" history, or else our descendants would perpetuate the horrors themselves.

 

Mark

 

Absolutely. But I agree there's a thin line between re-enactment and glorification.

 

Andy

[Steve 82]

Lets not start on `who was worse than who...`

 

There are an ever decreasing number of people around who actually fought through WW2 - and of course, any war before that and, I think it very relevant that we keep all periods alive in peoples memories to remind of all the sacrifices by ALL peoples and, more importantly of the lessons learnt.

 

Just to make a point, three years ago, I was giving a talk at a `Jamboree on the Air`(JOTA) for Scouts up to 13 / 14 yrs old. Group after group crammed into the back of my Unimog comms vehicle and, I gave a short introduction to the Cold War, NATO, Warsaw Pact etc followed by an opportunity to try the radio kit. Probably no more than 5 (out of 35) had the slightest idea about any of this history (or indeed any period before) and I found myself appalled that so many of our kids are growing up as if none of it ever happened.

 

While there is a certain `carnival` atmosphere at the `War and Peace Show` and others, I feel these events play a more serious role in educating about recent history - hence my committment to supporting Living History.

 

Steve W.

[Jonny666]

rule of thumb, both sides do good and bad in war american troops in the second world war did kill surrendering german soldiers but thats not to say we shouldnt dress as US troops.

 

think of the british army and bloody sunday, but does that stop people dressing as NI era paras, nope.

 

if the balence is there in such terms of just because you have a uniform that was warn by people who were mindless killers doesnt mean that the people in them now think the same!

 

if we didnt show both sides of a conflict then what would be the point in doing living history or re-enacting thats just sweeping it under the rug.

 

we have had a afgan re-enactment this year and nothing has been said about the russians laying waste to afgan villages when they were attacked killing men, women and children.

 

remember history is written by the victors but why cant the loosers still show there side of the story

[berna2vm]

Yes Jonny, I am with you 100% on this one and it wouldn't be right, balance wise just to have allied forces in attendance because there would be nobody for them to war with !!! I personally have never understood why middle aged British chaps want to dress up as GI's or 101st Airborne soldiers !!! The only reason I can think of is that their uniform is pretty smart....Like the German uniforms ! Maybe this is why we have so many of them both !!!

[Jonny666]

Yes Jonny, I am with you 100% on this one and it wouldn't be right, balance wise just to have allied forces in attendance because there would be nobody for them to war with !!! I personally have never understood why middle aged British chaps want to dress up as GI's or 101st Airborne soldiers !!! The only reason I can think of is that their uniform is pretty smart....Like the German uniforms ! Maybe this is why we have so many of them both !!!

 

that plays a big part if the uniform is smart lol

 

personally i like getting dressed as a royal marine but even they have a colourful history lol

[N.O.S.]

... The horrors perpetrated by the SS and Japanese Army are so awful that I am appalled that people wish to dress up in representation of these troops. We must never forget what these people did to our forbears.....

 

Yes, a difficult one. I was just where you are a while back, but you can't get away from the fact that the very presence of these outfits actually makes people think about what they did, so that helps to fulfill your wish that we never forget.

[RMS]

i think that reenactors do a great job of Making a show, without them would it be as big? and if people feel the need to dress up, who's to stop them,and its a fair point that all sides are represented.

 

But why wear uniforms in the bar at night? the days show is over, surely? even more annoying when head dress is not removed!

[Tony B]

The British did not invent the 'Concentration Camp'. The idea of removing and grouping the families, and therefore the supply lines of opposing troops at a time when armies lived of fthe land, was used as far back as warfare goes in history. Also the idea of then exterminating those families was not Britsh State policy. The idea of and conditions in the camps were publicly derided by Britsh citizens. I would also remind those in the UK, you have no history of an armed invader waliking the streets in England in living memory.

[mash]

If the re-enactors or vehicle owners are using vehicles that have known history to the ss or are marked as belonging to the ss, during the display they have every right to wear the matching uniform these shows are deigned to tell the history of what happened. The ss do get tared with the same brush but you have to remember alot of them where young men fighting for the country and never knew of the atrocities being carried out many miles from them, alot of the ss where highly trained fighters who had tremendous courage in the face of the enemy and died fighting for the country. when people re-enact them they are portraying the troops fighting in the front line and not the camps.

 

Of we did not have people dressing up as the enemy then who would we have beaten?? Alot of men lost their lives and we can not forget the reasons they laid their lives down for because that would be a true crime and insult to them.

[Lynx22B]

....except for those brave SS soldiers on the front at Normandy that murdered Canadian prisoners of war. They weren't anywhere near the death camps. Time to close this thread.

[Jolly Jeeper]

I stopped going to Beltring a few years back because I got sick of the SS uniforms... Got into a row with two Nazi 're-enactors' (and on here) at Yanks in Saddleworth so haven't been to that since neither... Wrote letters to Windscreen... Just don't understand why any free-born Brit would wear any uniform with a Swastika on... I can't see where the re-enactment is in going to a beer tent at a show in an SS uniform... Had the odd row about it on here years ago too... The fact that Nazi uniforms are banned in France surely says something... the storm that followed a royal and an FIA guy wearing German uniforms for 'fancy dress' must say something too...

[N.O.S.]

You obviously feel very strongly about it, JJ. I can appreciate that, although it is a shame it prevents you from enjoying the rest of (and the majority of) displays and exhibits at these shows.

 

It certainly doesn't affect me so much that it prevents me from going - I simply avoid spending too long in those areas - but what does annoy me is when an unexpected encounter with it forces me to confront what happened at a time when I don't really want to - like no doubt lots of others I'd rather not be reminded of it every time I go to a show.

 

On the other hand when would we ever think 'Oh I think I'll do a bit of research into ww2 attrocities this evening'? The reality is most of us don't, and eventually the whole thing gets suppressed and lost to newer generations.

 

My comments are only concerned with the affect the wearing of these uniforms has - as to why people wear them I'd rather not even think about it, and in any case only they can answer that.

 

So does it boil down to -

 

1) I'd like these uniforms banned because I don't want to be reminded of attrocities whenever I am confronted by them at shows?

 

2) If not banned, I'd like to see all such uniforms relegated to a separate area of a show where I can choose not to go, and no such uniforms to be worn in communal areas e.g. bars where they may cause offence?

[Toner]

When I first visited Stoneleigh a couple of years ago I was perturbed by the number of nazi uniforms being worn by visitors.

 

To put this into context, in Scotland, we don't have militaria shows and fairs like Stoneliegh and W&P so you could say it was part culture shock.

 

I have no problems with re enactors however I did find the odd one or two dressed as concentration camp guards to be particularly disturbing.

 

On one hand, a couple dressing up as camp guards and calling their dog 'Fritz' could be seen as offensive, however, it could be argued that most people involved in atrocities like the Holocaust were just ordinary people 'just doing their job'. (The banality of evil)

 

Good re enactors should be able to (hopefully) make the ordinary person stop and think.

 

*Apologies if this post is a bit rambling*

Edited July 25, 2011 by Toner
Typos

[flyingp]

 

The British did not invent the 'Concentration Camp'. The idea of removing and grouping the families, and therefore the supply lines of opposing troops at a time when armies lived of fthe land, was used as far back as warfare goes in history. Also the idea of then exterminating those families was not Britsh State policy. The idea of and conditions in the camps were publicly derided by Britsh citizens. I would also remind those in the UK, you have no history of an armed invader waliking the streets in England in living memory.

so the romans wernt here then ?

[Toner]

so the romans wernt here then ?

 

Originally Posted by Tony B

I would also remind those in the UK, you have no history of an armed invader waliking the streets in England in living memory.

 

Think that's the salient part of Tony B's argument?.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Toner
Getting the hang of quotes

[Chris Insidethearmour]

Spent 5 days at War & Peace this year, and I have to say I too am very uncomfortable with SS uniforms being worn

 

The point has been made that they remind people of the history, but the point has also been made that there is widespread ignorance of the history. Personally I think that reenactors dressing as SS sanitises the SS and their behaviour in WWII. The reenactors are not reenacting the attrocities (granted you wouldn't want to see that!) but because of that they lack context. Essentially they represent the idea that these were just highly trained soldiers fighting an honourable war, and the rest is not mentioned. This means that the attrocities are deleted from history

 

Worse still though is the amount of Children I saw dressed in SS uniform this year (with their SS dads) Kids are too young to truly get it, and it made me feel deeply uneasy to see them proudly wandering about with their deactivated KARs and SS collar flashes.

 

Of course, there are also certain traders that sell truly awful things like Hitler busts and icons. The SS reenactors at the show I believe chose to represent an SS Unit that had no history of attrocity. Rregettably though I think this point is somewhat lost on those that know what most of the SS units did in the war and don't appreciate the borderline symantic defence (they are basically just SS to most people)

 

As for the argument about all wars containing attrocities; yes they do, but that argument always sounds to me like 'they were all as bad as each other' and frankly they were very much NOT all as bad as each other. A few isolated incidents on the american and british side does not equate to starting a war that decimated Europe and the systematic murder and sterilisation of millions of people based on their enthicity, religion or even handicapped status

 

 

I totally agree that you can't have reenactment without the bad guys (light needs shade and vice versa). I also don't mind people dressing up in whatever they want, but I think they need to make a bit more effort to actually educate in what they do (other than just making sure their uniform and kit is correct and calling their well dressed presence 'education' on its own) As things stand they represent the 'cool' bit with no effort to educate about the evil, rendering the SS nothing more than some kind of 'cool special forces guys with the best kit'