important Tanks in a....Town

[ArtistsRifles]

I guess a lot depends on the scope and location of the proposed event.

If it's scope is limited to WW2 tracked vehicles then maybe damage to the road surface might not be such a problem. Vehicle attendance here in the UK might be..

On the other hand if open to all era's then damage to the surface becomes a very real risk as something like a Cheiftain's weight could tip the balance.

 

The Police aren't - usually - a problem; they are normally guys and girls with common sense who klnow we keep our vehicles in top order and aren't likely to do stupid things with them and would be more interestedin a guided tour. VOSA and the Highways Agency will be an issue though - they, and their collective attitudes to anything non-PC wouldn't be out of place in Germany in the early 1940's.

 

Location is the other issue - a lot will depend on the "flavour" of the local council I guess and how PC they are. Also on the approach made to them regarding the organization of such an event. I've never had to do this but I assume a well prepared presentation covering all aspects of routings, unload and load areas for transport, insurance (I guess if organized under the HMVF umbrella then HMVF would need to arrange PLI for the event?), crowd control and H&S risk assessments must stand more of a chance than a bald "we want to stage an event" one (apologies if this sounds like teaching those more experienced than I to suck eggs..).

 

Whatever - it sounds like a good idea and if volunteers are needed you know where to find me!!

Edited October 17, 2008 by ArtistsRifles

[Bodge Deep]

Well I've never been to Tanks in Town so don't really know the setup therein... but

They managed a bloody good procession at RTV which was excellent. But I'd not really be expecting an RTV style road run from armour as I can well understand how financially crippling a long run in a Sherman for example would be. Surely it'd be more a case of 'bring 'em into a square for a few hours then a short run to a site where they're allowed to go through their paces and we all get to watch and drool...

[Jack]

Some calls were made today and some conversions were had - reckon in some form we could do this.

[woa2]

Jack

 

I go to a Classic Car show every year at Easter (Good Friday) in Woodley Shopping centre near Reading, so they should be approachable if it doesn't conflict with trading (money matters). It actually comes under Wokingham district jurisdiction, not Reading. Could be an opertunity here?

 

Robert Davey

[Joris]

If you keep it WWII then Id say it would be best to pick a town where in WWII an armoured division was stationed. That will give it an historic background and will make it more acceptable in local press and to the local people.

 

If you want to do it like TiT then pick a small circular route of around 10 miles, have a static show on a big square somewhere and drive around in a field with the lot for fantastic pictures.

[woa2]

Just a suggestion, but how about a town where the Military is well known? I am thinking of Aldershot or Weymouth. Weymouth does allow the Sherman in the Veterans Parade.

[Jack]

Well this is coming along rather nicely. Robert - we discussed Weymouth yesterday and would be perfect for it because of it's history. The problem that we will have with that is that it is too far away from the rest of the country.

 

We need to have it at least in the Midlands somewhere. This is a conversation being had at the moment on a venue there....:cool2: It will more than likely be the first of many :???

 

First of all we need to gauge interest and then we need a venue and one that has camping etc etc. From the conversations that I have had so far - this is could be something rather special.

 

It will be under the HMVF banner and we will need to build a very focused and specific team that works to individual strenghts.

[TIM SPARKS]

Hi Jack, Dont want to add to the negativity of this thread, but Joris has picked up on an impotant point. The Tanks in Town event is all based around the liberation of Mons and the 83rd Recon, 3rd Armored Division effectively liberating the city. "Fish and Chips" which leads the parade is the actual Stuart that was the first tank in to Mons, left behind at the request of the city.

The event is also strongly subsidised by the Belgian authorities and organised by the Royal Auto Club, the Belgian military also have a presence.

One of the main problems i could forsee for starters is a reason or theme for doing such an event in the UK to get officials and sponsership on board,

I know a couple of the organisers for Tanks in Town and it gets harder each year with red tape and heavier police involvment which was very apparent this year.

Good luck to anyone undertaking such a task in the UK. There is a paintig of 6th Armored Division Shermans lined up in the market place in Moreton-in-Marsh in the Cotswolds,it could be a start!

Tim

[Papav66]

They do have a show in Moreton with a small military section but access is not brilliant & not possible to close road off completely as its the Fosse Way.

 

Stratford-upon-Avon might be worth considering as they can sometimes close the main high street. Lots of camping and space for low-loaders on the nearby racecourse and the added advantage of alot of American tourists already there might be interested.

[Jack]

Many thanks Tim, it is all welcomed.

 

As I see it - you have to start somewhere. I understand the connection with Mons but we have to hang our hat somewhere. We have more than enough connections/links/tie ins with armour here in the UK. We would be looking at pre D-Day build up which as we all know was incredible.

 

As folks have pointed out to me that the HSE will be a problem. I have no doubt of this at all but when I ask them have had that conversation with them they say no. So me it is a clear conversation to have. It would be best practice to ask them first and work back from there -I totally understand that they wouldn't want people hanging off tanks.

 

Furthermore with regards to Mons - we simply don't have that amount of armour in the UK so scalability wouldn't be an issue. There is one key issue here that makes it workable or not and that is armour owners. If this is of no interest to them that it won't happen. If that is the case then we will move on and plan something else. There is plenty that can and should be done.

 

What we need to do is to turn everything upside on it's head, break the moulds and bring some excitement, buzz and adrenalin into the hobby. Folks are always telling me that so and so show used to be good, and this show and that - why are there no longer good? There is so much we can do.

[carrier barry]

Fantastic idea!!

 

There is a small show each year At the Lincolnsfield Childrens Centre ( A former USAF base )

near Watford.

 

It has the space for Loaders and a arena. It has some accomadation and event halls.

It has good access to M1 and M25, mainline trains and tube.

 

and best of all the guy how runs it is very interested in Military vehicles.

 

The show is done each year to raise money for the Childrens home. Tanks in a parade would raise a lot of money and who's going to stop that.

 

I have spoken to him before about this as there is a good circuit though Watford town. The council are approcable, If its organised properly the police would be fine and as long as you have there blessing

the H & E is just ticking boxes.

[Adrian Barrell]

Jack,

 

you would be surprised how much armour there is in the UK, how many owners would be interested in bringing it out to an event is another issue!

 

I would certainly be up for it and can think of several others who would be too. The main problem would be, as always, cost. For instance, to attend and partake in such an event in the midlands would cost me in the region of £1500 to £2000, the vast majority of it on transport. That's a huge sum for a weekend playing.

 

Fuel sponsorship for the tanks is a possibility but is actually a small part of the overall cost.

 

With the right venue and mix of on/off road running, an event of this sort would be brilliant.

Go for it!

[Jack]

Thanks Adrian, I was hoping you would add your thoughts and support. Thanks for the figures too - it is a great help. Can you have a stab at how much WW2 armour we have here in the UK?

[Joris]

In the Netherlands, when you want armour you pay for the transportation. Fuel to drive is usually paid by the owner but a donation might be possible.

 

So what you need to look for is sponsoring by transport companies.

[Adrian Barrell]

Joris,

 

it's the same here but I thought I would let someone else make the assumption! I think a fuel sponsor would be more likely as they have a large retail customer base whereas a transport company, particularly one who does heavy haulage, may not see a benefit in sponsoring tanks. Maybe getting a fuel company to supply the fuel for the transport is the way to go.

 

Jack, I would think you should be able to attract 15 to 20 tanks with a similar number of wheeled AFVs. If there is no historical theme to the event then you could probably double that with more modern armour. It would all depend on costs.

[M5Clive]

I spoke to Adrian about this idea not six weeks ago and have also run the idea past Jack as a 'toe in the water' idea.

 

The principle has already been established in Ramsbury, Wiltshire and we proved that taking a column of WWII heavy armour into a village scenario and making a big noise commands a lot of attention and much admiration.........but you simply have to get the locals on side...........then all of a sudden doors simply open for you, instead of having to bash them down.

 

A location Adrian and I discussed is the Heritage Coast area of East Suffolk. Why? A sizeable amount of land over there is owned by a big collector of MV's and its historically significant to WWII British Armour - Adrian will be able to explain more on this front.

 

Of course it would need sponsorship and backing, but I raised about 11k to front Bolero and Keith (under my initial guidance and his Kennet Valley Area efforts) raised about 18K I think to front Route to Victory.

 

Its all possible. We can sit at home all day long and think of a hundred reasons why we couldn't, but actually you get a much greater buzz from achieving the unachievable.......Look how Jack keeps that truck of his on the road..........!

 

Must go - Got a date at the maternity ward this morning!

[lightweight]

I hope this works out, I have tried and failed on at least three occasions to get permission to get a 432 or/and an Abbot into our town centre for Poppy selling and on each occasion it has been vetoed.

 

Apparently, they will take nothing over seven tons, and pointing out that the ground pressure is less than a normal car makes no difference.

 

Imagine how many more prospective poppy buyers you could attract with some armour.....

[Chappers]

I mentioned Tanks in the town to the local Council officer who organises all the events for Solihull in the West Midlands whilst we were sorting the permission to set up a display to sell Poppies last Saturday. She said It wouldn't be a problem for road closures /vehicle parking etc etc and She's very much trying to get an event in Solihull for next year.

 

Just a thought as it's pretty Central to the country.

[ArtistsRifles]

Thats reachable for me - assuming such an event would be open to armour from all eras and not the "dark side" only!!

[Jack]

OK – following on from some great advice and support from a fellow HMVFer this is where we are.

 

Early days but as you know I think HMVF has a show or two in it. We have enough folks here with all the right skills, goodwill, know how and energy. Tanks in Town in Belgium is unique and please correct me if I am wrong but there aren’t many other places that that happens? If I was a tanker owner then I would like to be in Mons but it ‘ain’t’ cheap to get there and back so something needs to be done about that.

 

Now I am waiting on Clive’s thoughts on this as he was saying something in the above post. Once he has finished changing nappies (his daughters, not his own nappy) I am sure he will be back.

 

But this would be a WW2 armour event and no post war vehicles. Once we have nailed the WW2 event we should then look at a post war event – now that would be something too. It would be not for profit but has to cover costs.

 

It would be ideal if we could have it in a historical/relevant area (shame Dorset is on the south coast) but there are plenty more areas. Otherwise it will indeed be just another show in a field and HMVF being HMVF it just doesn’t do ‘just’. There has been big support from the re-enacting world and have been offered 4 tanks and many more halftracks.

 

Need to look at the HSE but I agree with many – that isn’t the biggest hurdle. Location and funds are the biggest…...

 

I will pay for the insurance if I have too!

[Adrian Barrell]

Well I'm up for it! Subject to location and costs, I could bring my M5 HST as well as the Sherman. Lots of seats for guests....would need a driver though!

 

Personally, I don't feel it has to be 'in a town' to be different. As long as there is enough area to play in, preferably with lots of roads/tracks to drive, that would be enough. There is nothing worse than just parking in a field of shunting around a small arena. I did a film job once using someone else's Sherman and we had to move it from one set to another at the end of filming one day. It was only about a mile or so but was on a dirt track through some woods just as it was getting dark. Weaving amongst the trees, picking the route out as I went was great fun.

 

I do appreciate though that if sponsorship is to be obtained, some element of public interaction would be required and this usually results in a static display or arena based movements. Even the Beltring arena seems small when you've driven round it a few dozen times and that was built for the purpose.

 

Maybe being based in an out of town site with the tracks or space and then a move into town for a public display would be a good compromise?

[Snapper]

Put me down the snaps. I need a decent gig. If this is achievable then whoop de doop. I can understand it having to be a WW2 event to garner any wide interest and for it to be themed properly. I agree with Adrian that it would need a bit of a rally element and not a park-up. But it's not my gas money........ I have never been to tanks in town, so all I've done is seen the snaps.

 

MB

[Marmite!!]

Here we go again.... please explain why this HAS to be a WW2 only event???????? the forum is open to everyone & so should any event HMVF sets up...

[No Signals]

Here we go again.... please explain why this HAS to be a WW2 only event???????? the forum is open to everyone & so should any event HMVF sets up...

 

I can understand why non WW2 members of the forum feel like this. I can also understand why WW2 non tank type vehicle owners (me included) might also feel this way. Could I chip in with my 'two pen'uth' without being flamethrowered too badly? There are quite a few shows out there which cater for all sections, and there are some others which cater solely for single era - mostly WW2, I think. I can see that a show organiser can see that something which Joe Public can get their head round easier, which WW2 is, is more likely for a first event to be a success than just another general show. If a theme is picked then it dilutes its impact if everything else is included. I ran an event early this year which was WW1 based, I had good WW2 guys wanting to come along and support the event for the very best of reasons but I said no and explained why. To their credit some of them came along as punters, thoroughly enjoyed it and afterwards made a point of letting me know that they felt in hindsight that I was right for taking the line I did. The next idea I am thinking of doing is going to be WW2 based and if it comes off I hope they will support it. Because a decision has been taken to make the first HMVF themed event a WW2 'tank' one shouldn't be taken as snub to everyone else. What I would suggest is that we all should start and look long term for the opportunities for where and when to put on the next 'Cold War' one (or whatever) in tandem - and the next and the next. I think the concept of moving locations is an excellent one if suitable relevant themed spots can be identified. To do the job properly on different sites takes a lot of planning. So getting background info collated and started on and put in to place pending the second/third etc show would make sense. I think if you try to make a 'show for all seasons' then you will end up with 'just another show'. It would be good for the name of the forum if HMVF was associated with something different and that bit more special. This needs to be looked at long term. It would be a pity if forum members, or indeed the wider owning fraternity, got the huff on and took their goodwill away because it wasnt 'their turn' straight away. (Please note SSwing this is not a swipe at you, I'm just trying to make a point, it just happens that your post triggered it. Not suggesting for a minute that you are or that this is what you intend doing) I believe it is a fair point that a WW2 armour based event would be a more sure hitter as a first event than any other period. It is the easy one, but the organiser still has to do the work and without the benefit of an established support team etc etc We should 'practise' with this one and use any lessons to underpin the potentially less atractive events so that they can be promoted and run in a way which makes them just as successful. A start has to be made somewhere. I think it is a good decision to try and go for something with a specific historically correct location and period. On that basis this will always disappoint owners from other periods. But lets be positive and look for the other opportunities!

[Marmite!!]

Well I think you all know my views on the subject... remember the great PW debate... http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=2362

 

Bet the PW Jeeps in dodgy markings still sneak in the back door...:coffee:

Edited November 7, 2008 by Marmite!!
typo