antarmike Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Well done that man ! It does say its 1957 but it does not mention registration and it is not displaying a number plate on the photo ! If I can help out I'd love to mate ! It won't be MOT exempt for much longer......change is coming.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 I guess I'll have to go tracked then! Although the running costs of a Militant, even requiring a test are probably a fraction of those of running tracked armour on the road? Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFowler Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 It won't be MOT exempt for much longer......change is coming.... Much more of this and revolution is coming mate !:nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 I guess I'll have to go tracked then! Although the running costs of a Militant, even requiring a test are probably a fraction of those of running tracked armour on the road? Jules that reminds me, I was meaning to ask you, Jules, about testing your militant, didn't you have a problem with the rolling road and your brake readings? I tried to blag a free brake test for the militant recently, and was told they couldn't do the back axles as the militant doesn't have a diff lock, and the rollers would drive the vehicle out, by turning the other road wheels via the prop etc. Does anyone have any views on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) that reminds me, I was meaning to ask you, Jules, about testing your militant, didn't you have a problem with the rolling road and your brake readings? I tried to blag a free brake test for the militant recently, and was told they couldn't do the back axles as the militant doesn't have a diff lock, and the rollers would drive the vehicle out, by turning the other road wheels via the prop etc. Does anyone have any views on this? It is not a question of whether a vehicle has a diff lock, but rather if it has an inter-axle diff on the rear bogey. Edited June 3, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 so if as the militant doesn't have one, is what I'm told about the brake rollers true? I was wondering how Jules managed to get his militant through a brake test if this was the case? - and wondered if perhaps this had contributed towards the problems he had last year on test with poor readings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 It is not a question of whether a vehicle has a diff lock, but rather if it has an inter-axle diff of the rear bogey. Exactly, I would have thought any roadgoing twin axle set up would have an inter-axle diff. If you have a diff. lock you must have a diff. surely. Is it not that for a roller brake test, each axle is tested individually and you need the diff. to stop the drive going to the other axle? So if you have a diff. lock, dont lock it. Are there trucks without inter axle diffs.? I reserve the right to be wrong (always!):confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Exactly, I would have thought any roadgoing twin axle set up would have an inter-axle diff. If you have a diff. lock you must have a diff. surely.Is it not that for a roller brake test, each axle is tested individually and you need the diff. to stop the drive going to the other axle? So if you have a diff. lock, dont lock it. Are there trucks without inter axle diffs.? I reserve the right to be wrong (always!):confused: yes plenty, Scammell Constructor, some versions of Antar, Mk 1 and 2 Militant, O854 (6x6 Matador), as far as I know Leyland Hippo, Austin K6 in fact on the older stuff a through drive leading bogey axle is the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Ah, now I understand the problem. I should have thought, walking beam axles etc.... must study more :readbook: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 that reminds me, I was meaning to ask you, Jules, about testing your militant, didn't you have a problem with the rolling road and your brake readings? I tried to blag a free brake test for the militant recently, and was told they couldn't do the back axles as the militant doesn't have a diff lock, and the rollers would drive the vehicle out, by turning the other road wheels via the prop etc. Does anyone have any views on this? The problem with the rolling brake test as far as I'm concerned is mainly with the set up of the Mk 1 Militants rear brakes, with one air actuator for the left pair of wheels and one operating the right pair. They pull one axles brake s on with a rod, and push the other on with a tube. If they are not initially set up correctly (almost impossible without a rolling brake tester), the only way they will even up is through natural bedding in and wear. Unfortunately in the last 20 years my Mk1 has only done about 6000 miles, and has had almost no significant wear on the linings, so the brake tester is what I used last year to scrape through the test. Another Militant owner suggested that it should only have a Tapley test as it can't be compared with a modern truck with an individual actuator for each wheel, and they don't hold specific brake readings for the Militant? I haven't been able to confirm this with my friendly man from VOSA. Tried booking a test for the truck today.... waded thro VOSA's phone system. Eventually got through to find the HGV test has gone up from about £75 last year to £120 this year!! Talk about daylight robbery! So I then tried to ask the lady on the phone if there was a local test centre to test it as class 4, as a motorhome. She threw a track.... Eventually putting me through to Hasting test centre, who are going to phone me back to arrange a test date. "Can I have a direct number" I asked. "Absolutely not!!" was the reply. True public service....Need I say more. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) Sorry side tracked, and didn't answer the question. They can test the brakes without driving it off the tester because unlike a car brake tester in a local garage, they can turn the rollers in opposite directions. On the Militant this means each wheel is tested in turn, not in pairs. It also makes for a long sweaty test building up the air for eack one in turn, then ratcheting on the handbrake for each wheel in turn (as the secondary braking system) and then ratcheting on the handbrake for each one again to check the handbrake works! A true work out on a warm day, with 5 tests last year before getting through it was quite a bit of excercise! As has been explained elsewhere Pioneers and Explorers can't have a rolling brake test as each side the pairs of wheels are driven by gears in the walking beams. Jules Edited June 3, 2010 by julezee001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 Sorry side tracked, and didn't answer the question. They can test the brakes without driving it off the tester because unlike a car brake tester in a local garage, they can turn the rollers in opposite directions. On the Militant this means each wheel is tested in turn, not in pairs. It also makes for a long sweaty test building up the air for eack one in turn, then ratcheting on the handbrake for each wheel in turn (as the secondary braking system) and then ratcheting on the handbrake for each one again to check the handbrake works! A true work out on a warm day, with 5 tests last year before getting through it was quite a bit of excercise! As has been explained elsewhere Pioneers and Explorers can't have a rolling brake test as each side the pairs of wheels are driven by gears in the walking beams. Jules If there is a double drive rear bogey with no 3rd diff on the leading axle, (eg. 6x6 O854 Matador, no walking beam) the fact that say the back axle can be on the rollers with one wheel trying to go forward, and one trying to counter rotate, doesn't alter the fact that the first bogey axle is not on the rollers, and is also trying to rotate. A rolling road brake test cannot be done on a double drive rear axle with no third (inter axle diff). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 With one wheel driven forward and the other counter rotated, the crown wheel of the diff on the axle in question is not rotated so there is no drive to the the pinion, thus also no drive to the prop to the other rear axle, or forward to the transfer box and the front axle (if it were in 6 wheel drive). Hence if you jack up one of the rear axles and spin a wheel the other one will turn the opposite way, because the prop is locked by the action of the other axle being on the ground. Far easier to demonstrate than explain in writing!! Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 With one wheel driven forward and the other counter rotated, the crown wheel of the diff on the axle in question is not rotated so there is no drive to the the pinion, thus also no drive to the prop to the other rear axle, or forward to the transfer box and the front axle (if it were in 6 wheel drive). Hence if you jack up one of the rear axles and spin a wheel the other one will turn the opposite way, because the prop is locked by the action of the other axle being on the ground. Far easier to demonstrate than explain in writing!! Jules Dooh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 the test station at Wetherby, still has an incline for testing brakes on vehicles that can't/ don't have to go through a test on the rollers. So, if I get the wheels rotated in opposite directions, I can get a brake test on the rollers? I'll go see about it tomorrow, wonder if I'll get any 'locks' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 the test station at Wetherby, still has an incline for testing brakes on vehicles that can't/ don't have to go through a test on the rollers. So, if I get the wheels rotated in opposite directions, I can get a brake test on the rollers? I'll go see about it tomorrow, wonder if I'll get any 'locks' ? The incline is only to test the handbrake. The footbrake efficiency would be tested with a Tapley meter in the cab, and stopping asap from 20mph. Two years ago my Militant was tested this way, I'm fairly sure I hadn't reached 20mph but the tester seemed satisfied. I'm not sure I could reach 20mph within the boundary of the test centre? Rumour has it that many years ago, a tester split his lip on the fuel filters in the cab when testing a Militant with rather efficient brakes at the same centre. Ouch!! Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 surprised he didn't try to fail it for not having seatbelts fitted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 They're normally a bit confused by the early/military style of headlamp which are original, and have a dull 45w glow and don't have directional glass/lens. They haven't even tried to test them, except for hi/lo and on/off working. Luckily through age it does not require seat belts, and as an HGV I believe I wouldn't have to wear them even if they are fitted! Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 I am sure if they are fitted they have to be worn, HGV is not exempt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 I am sure if they are fitted they have to be worn, HGV is not exempt. Correct! Another EU interference in this countries affairs, changed in 2006. Glad I haven't fitted belts then. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mk3iain Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Correct! Another EU interference in this countries affairs, changed in 2006. Glad I haven't fitted belts then. Jules Can always be removed, and as has been stated the hook on type are easily removed for those times it would look out of place... I suppose its one of those things, when you have a vehicle that does not require fitment, but having them when driving on the highway may prevent a bent nose! there are arguments both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 The problem with the rolling brake test as far as I'm concerned is mainly with the set up of the Mk 1 Militants rear brakes, with one air actuator for the left pair of wheels and one operating the right pair. They pull one axles brake s on with a rod, and push the other on with a tube. If they are not initially set up correctly (almost impossible without a rolling brake tester), the only way they will even up is through natural bedding in and wear. Unfortunately in the last 20 years my Mk1 has only done about 6000 miles, and has had almost no significant wear on the linings, so the brake tester is what I used last year to scrape through the test. Another Militant owner suggested that it should only have a Tapley test as it can't be compared with a modern truck with an individual actuator for each wheel, and they don't hold specific brake readings for the Militant? I haven't been able to confirm this with my friendly man from VOSA. Tried booking a test for the truck today.... waded thro VOSA's phone system. Eventually got through to find the HGV test has gone up from about £75 last year to £120 this year!! Talk about daylight robbery! So I then tried to ask the lady on the phone if there was a local test centre to test it as class 4, as a motorhome. She threw a track.... Eventually putting me through to Hasting test centre, who are going to phone me back to arrange a test date. "Can I have a direct number" I asked. "Absolutely not!!" was the reply. True public service....Need I say more. Jules Spent all day yesterday making brackets to bolt my box body to the Militant for the M.O.T. test today, thus converting it from a load on an HGV to a motorhome, and a class 4 test. It was worth it in the end although the tester wanted to check that there really is a bed, cooker, and sink in the back. He then commented that as it had a generator and tent (18 x 24) it was possibly a Living Van? which apparently is an HGV test. In the end he relented and tested it as class 4. The brake test as ever was the issue, mainly because he couldn't carry out a proper class 4 test, because of the lack of third diff. It should have each axle tested for imbalance with both wheels rolling forward, which of course can't be done. He therefore tested as an HGV, using the max effort each side to work out the imbalance. As far as I understand it he should have used a Tapley meter, be he described that as being as much good as an upright brick in the cab! If it had been tested as an HGV (21500kg), it would have failed on the rear axle brake imbalance (41%), but as a motorhome (Class 4) 16500kg it is within the 50% limit for a rear axle. For next year he has suggested that I take the rear prop off so he can test both rear axles properly! Any comments welcome. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 surely if he cannot conduct a test on the rollers due to the vehicle's construction, he should conduct a tapley test, rather than asking you to bring it stripped down? i.e prop removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julezee001 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 surely if he cannot conduct a test on the rollers due to the vehicle's construction, he should conduct a tapley test, rather than asking you to bring it stripped down? i.e prop removed? Overall he was very helpful, and I don't want to upset him by not being helpful myself? He ignored the molegrips on the outer drivers door handle that I snapped off 2 days before the test ("Get it fixed!"), and the military headlights were the usual blob on the beam tester... I don't wan't to p*** him off as he was eventually happy to test it as class 4, but I'm fairly sure it should have had a Tapley test. I might call VOSA to see if I can get someone to put their neck on the line and give an opinion in writing, but knowing what my own experience has been and others too, it often depends on who you speak to or even which way the wind is blowing, for the answer given. Whilst testing as an HGV is not the end of the world, after all the hassle and expense last year, I'd rather not go there again. He wanted to test it on the rollers because then he knows all the brakes are doing something, which wouldn't be shown with the Tapley meter. If there were an accident the police might ask why the brakes weren't tested on a rolling tester, but the chance of having a major incident through brake inefficiency is tiny, and as many 4 x 4's and other modern cars (with sophisticated traction control systems)have to be tested with a Tapley still, I can't see the problem myself. If it were like most other Mk1 Militants, it would be pre 1960 and wouldn't need a test at all, and then it would be down to me as the driver to judge whether it's roadworthy. Perhaps I should take the Scammell Explorer up for a voluntary brake test and see them test that on the rollers? Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I suppose you need to find where it refers to the brake test in their guidance notes, to be able to refer the tester to it, without upsetting them. We have tested older stuff in the past and there have been all sorts of weird exceptions, but the testers have been well aware and gone away to check up, things such as not needing screenwash if your screen opens, not needing a repeater light for your indicators if you can see them in operation, ie in the mirror etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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