smashycrashy Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I have acquired a Ferret that has been relatively stationary for the past 25 years. The owner would pull it out of its shed once a month to run the engine otherwise it really wasn't driven (~350 miles in 25 years). The brake pedal is currently very "hard" and stuck in the "up" position. I've read the following regarding unsticking brakes: http://www.ferretforums.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=17&sid=891407cadfd8c9f5567b489bda5a93e8 And this as well: http://www.smokingairplanes.com/DAIMLERFERRETMAINTENANCEBRAKESCYLINDERWHEELHUBASSEMBLYENGINE.htm I posted over in Ferret heaven and someone mentioned just pumping the brakes hard. But as I like to get as much info and opinions as possible (as I am very new to all of this) I was wondering how people here would go about diagnosing and fixing the "hard" brake pedal issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana and Jackie Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Hi, Its likely that every wheel cylinder and the master cylinder will need overhauling. Go to each wheel cylinder and see if you can turn the brake bleed nipple. If you can't then the cylinder will need replacing as the bleed nipple is seized and if forced will likely break off. The brake nipples and cylinders are exactly the same on every wheel station, other parts may not be. Personally, after a similar experience, I would remove each cylinder (if serviceable) and get them lined with stainless steel. The same with the master cylinder. Renew the rubber seals in all cylinders - Oh and don't forget the flexible brake pipes, any signs of perishing renew them. Damage or deterioration may be hidden by paint as was the case with our Ferret when one pipe broke when I twisted it! New master cylinders can be obtained off ebay for around £60. It's also worth taking off the brake drums to check for any sign of oil contamination (which may occur if the wheel gearbox was overfilled as in our case) and or wear. At the same time LIGHTLY lubricate the adjuster mechanism. My suspicion is that after 25 years you are going to be doing a lot of work to get it roadworthy. D&J I have acquired a Ferret that has been relatively stationary for the past 25 years. The owner would pull it out of its shed once a month to run the engine otherwise it really wasn't driven (~350 miles in 25 years). The brake pedal is currently very "hard" and stuck in the "up" position. I've read the following regarding unsticking brakes: http://www.ferretforums.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=17&sid=891407cadfd8c9f5567b489bda5a93e8 And this as well: http://www.smokingairplanes.com/DAIMLERFERRETMAINTENANCEBRAKESCYLINDERWHEELHUBASSEMBLYENGINE.htm I posted over in Ferret heaven and someone mentioned just pumping the brakes hard. But as I like to get as much info and opinions as possible (as I am very new to all of this) I was wondering how people here would go about diagnosing and fixing the "hard" brake pedal issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 On any vehicle with that history, I'd bite the bullet and repalce all the brakes. All sort of nasties can occur. As many here have me say before 'To Quote my old Mentor Howard ' A bugger if they don't go, a disaster if they don't stop!' Cupro nickel brake pipe all the way through is also a very good investment. Fit and forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 dont want to scare u but really needs a engine out to replace lines in engine bay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 dont want to scare u but really needs a engine out to replace lines in engine bay Might as well get the job done once and for all. Also allow you to see what other nasty suprises may be lurking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 dont want to scare u but really needs a engine out to replace lines in engine bay It is possible to change them with the engine and gearbox in place, I've done it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Thanks for the info, we just had a big storm (well, big for California!) and my work area is too wet to work right now, I'll be pulling off the wheels and checking things out. It is, in general, very "gunky" around the wheel areas as the grease has leaked and accumulated over time. Here is a look at the engine running this morning: It's pretty much spotless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) looks good mate is it a mk1/2 ? see its got a brake servo plus alternator ,post some pics of the old girl! Edited April 14, 2012 by griff66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 looks good mate is it a mk1/2 ? see its got a brake servo plus alternator u sure this chap had it 25 years? The data plate said Mk1/2 but that doesn't appear original (it is configured currently as a Mk 2/3 but it came with a Mk 1/2 turret), It is of unknown origin at this point (see my introduction thread for data plate and hull plate pics). I thought it was Canadian but there were supposedly no Mk 1/2 Canadian Ferrets. And talking to someone over there in the UK he said that was too soon for MoD release Ferret. I have the Ohio title so I'm sure it's been ~25 years and someone owned it before him from alabama I believe. It is in immaculate condition, every interior bin, Larkspur radios, lots of extra spares. Just the brake issue as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 If you remove each wheel cylinder from the backplate and have an assistant press the brake pedal you should be able to see if the wheel cylinder is working or seized. You do not need to remove the flexible pipe but be aware that if it opens it might not be able to be returned to the closed position. Most of the parts can be bought from you're local NAPA store (seals and such) not entire brake cylinders mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 If you remove each wheel cylinder from the backplate and have an assistant press the brake pedal you should be able to see if the wheel cylinder is working or seized. You do not need to remove the flexible pipe but be aware that if it opens it might not be able to be returned to the closed position. Most of the parts can be bought from you're local NAPA store (seals and such) not entire brake cylinders mind. I just found the brake cylinder and master cylinder rebuild kit numbers for NAPA, I will check the brake cylinders in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) my mk1/2 reg 18 ea 36 hull 3323 Edited April 14, 2012 by griff66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I just found the brake cylinder and master cylinder rebuild kit numbers for NAPA, I will check the brake cylinders in the morning. Would you post up the part numbers so that other owners in the US can find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 I found it on the old Ferret Heaven archive page, I do not know how accurate the information is: "I have been told that there are NAPA kits that are the equivalent to the rebuild kits. The information that I have is as follows: (Please note that I have no actual first hand knowledge as I have not used these parts); Master cylinder rebuild kit: NAPA part 214 Wheel cylinder rebuild kit: NAPA part 152 " http://www.ferret-afv.org/oldfh/FH14.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Im now suspecting the brake vacuum servo, hard pedal, no change in brake operation once engine is started, I still think there is sticky brake on one side that is a different issue. I'll have to crack open the manuals and see what can be done to test and service the servo, but if it is bad does anyone have a source for spares? If ebay (I checked), link? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana and Jackie Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Hi All the info you will ever need is on Andy's website, including manuals and parts suppliers. http://www.ferret-fv701.co.uk/ Cant help on the servo as our Ferret doesn't have one- despite which now the braking system has been overhauled the stopping distance for a 4 ton vehicle isn't too bad at all. D&J Im now suspecting the brake vacuum servo, hard pedal, no change in brake operation once engine is started, I still think there is sticky brake on one side that is a different issue. I'll have to crack open the manuals and see what can be done to test and service the servo, but if it is bad does anyone have a source for spares? If ebay (I checked), link? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topdog Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 A rock hard pedal - I would suspect fluid leaking in the master cylinder past the piston so there is fluid both sides. Its a simple rebuild but I would try that one first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 A rock hard pedal - I would suspect fluid leaking in the master cylinder past the piston so there is fluid both sides. Its a simple rebuild but I would try that one first Fluid should be both sides of the inner piston and if it were both sides of the outer, then it will be running down your right boot. more likely to be siezed / rusty in the open end of the master cylinder, easy way to check, slacken an outlet pipe on master cylinder, try pushing pedal, if still hard, then overhaul this cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Fluid should be both sides of the inner piston and if it were both sides of the outer, then it will be running down your right boot. more likely to be siezed / rusty in the open end of the master cylinder, easy way to check, slacken an outlet pipe on master cylinder, try pushing pedal, if still hard, then overhaul this cylinder. A rock hard pedal - I would suspect fluid leaking in the master cylinder past the piston so there is fluid both sides. Its a simple rebuild but I would try that one first I do have a cylinder rebuild kit handy, guess I'll spend my time looking at the master cylinder first Thanks for the advice all, I'm not very good at this stuff yet but I am (slowly) learning. I was looking on ebay for a new master cylinder (just in case) but "Lockheed Master Cylinder" gets a phonebook and "Ferret Master Cylinder" gets nothing, I've been told they are fairly common, is there a part number or something else I should be looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) You won't find them as Ferret items. The ebay seller below has the master cylinders and servos NOS. http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/vintagevehiclespares&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID&_trksid=p3984.m1543.l2533 As everyone else has said it would be worth replacing the rubber and steel brake pipes. Edited April 17, 2012 by ferrettkitt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Fluid should be both sides of the inner piston and if it were both sides of the outer, then it will be running down your right boot. more likely to be siezed / rusty in the open end of the master cylinder, easy way to check, slacken an outlet pipe on master cylinder, try pushing pedal, if still hard, then overhaul this cylinder. There is corrosion around the boot and the lid of the master cylinder, loosening an outlet pipe got a little fluid coming out when I pressed the pedal but the pedal was still hard. I'll try a rebuild. I was trying to get the master cylinder out but the plate is stuck to it from the corrosion and then I lost power to my work area, I'll try again in the morning. You won't find them as Ferret items. The ebay seller below has the master cylinders and servos NOS. http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/vintagevehiclespares&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID&_trksid=p3984.m1543.l2533 As everyone else has said it would be worth replacing the rubber and steel brake pipes. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiketheBike Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 You won't find them as Ferret items. The ebay seller below has the master cylinders and servos NOS. http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/vintagevehiclespares&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID&_trksid=p3984.m1543.l2533 As everyone else has said it would be worth replacing the rubber and steel brake pipes. Andy, I think it was you who pointed me to these guys when I relaced the master cylinder (causing that odd issue of the brake lights coming on when left for a day or so). Delivery was real quick, easy to fit etc...just make sure its the 1.5 inch one you order as they also do a 1.25inch in fact..this one: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOCKHEED-MASTER-AUSTIN-K2-DENNIS-PAX-MORRIS-1940s-/150723034809?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Commercial_Vehicles_ET&hash=item2317cafeb9#ht_758wt_754 Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashycrashy Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 For us Yanks, I also found someone who re-lines master cylinders and has specifically done a Ferret cylinder: http://www.brakecylinder.com/Gallery.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
griff66 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 u could just re hone existing master cylinder and fit new seal kit did it with mine , oh and dont leave handbrake on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 u could just re hone existing master cylinder and fit new seal kit did it with mine , oh and dont leave handbrake on! So long as there is no pitting in the bore, it usually occurs at the bottom where small drops of water have gathered in the fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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