AlienFTM Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I have seen several Saracen Mk 5 ACVs with turrets which were direct from the MoD. Just because you didn't see them in service, didn't mean they weren't there! That was what I was trying to imply and not come across as arrogant. I have seen the pics now and I am convinced. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan turner (RIP) Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Don't wish to upset Clive but as the Sarri shown has a flat top is it really an ACV. The images I can come up with Including having seen the one at firepower ACV have all got a higher apexed roof with extra metal above the hatches plus the wing fittings on the angles and therefore cannot have a turret fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 There is so much saracen porn here its obscene (and I love it). There is a difference between the custom made acp which had a high top and the apcs converted to acv. I can't see why a turret would be a disadvantage in an acv, still very useful for defence, so why remove it. Probably different units had different ideas and converted things differently, so there could be a number of different versions out there. Can anyone fit the word different into a sentence more times than I just have. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan turner (RIP) Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 (edited) Hi Mister Paul you wanna buy feeelthy pictures of military vehicles nearly 26,000 to choose from from AC to yale and most tracked items up till 1990 Edited June 10, 2010 by alan turner (RIP) missed a 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Hi Alan, The images you show are ACP rather than ACV, both are clearly shown in the User Handbook 1976 & both are very different animals. The image in the hand book shows a 'low roof' (if I can put it that way) ACV with no turret, but the AA ring mount moved forward where the turret ought to be. I shall now shuffle off & study my pics again to see if I have an 'in service' shot for the cream to add to Clives pie.:cool2: Later peeps. Howard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 The pages below come from the book of 1956 FVRDE exhibition. FV604 is allocated to ACVs there were at least 5 versions of FV604(A) based on Saracen Mk 1 & Mk 2. FV604(B) & FV604(D) was based on Saracen Mk 5. Not to be confused with FV610. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Right, found said piccy. Not 'in service' as such but definately original I'd say. The motor is parked in a line up of rusty Saracens, so it must be a disposal yard somewhere & sometime. Theres a nice roof shot looking down at the 'wings' & turret. Not sure what mark it is but the turret has a 4 pot smoke discharger & flat disc around the base where it meets the roof (were they all like that ?) I think Clives picture is a Mk1 ACoP judging by the tubular rail on the right side ?, but the pic I have here is I think a much later one. Howard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Some photos from Withams in early 2004 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Hi Mister Paul you wanna buy feeelthy pictures of military vehicles nearly 26,000 to choose from from AC to yale and most tracked items up till 1990 You're not that nigerian general who wants to send $000,000's dollars to this country and needs my bank account to help him out are you? Apparently I get to keep some of the money for helping out. What luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saracenstump Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 heres a couple more i found,no turrets though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 10, 2010 Author Share Posted June 10, 2010 Right, found said piccy. Not 'in service' as such but definately original I'd say. The motor is parked in a line up of rusty Saracens, so it must be a disposal yard somewhere & sometime. Theres a nice roof shot looking down at the 'wings' & turret. Not sure what mark it is but the turret has a 4 pot smoke discharger & flat disc around the base where it meets the roof (were they all like that ?) I think Clives picture is a Mk1 ACoP judging by the tubular rail on the right side ?, but the pic I have here is I think a much later one. Howard[ATTACH=CONFIG]28775[/ATTACH] That photo is exactly like my saracen, but was it used in ni as a acv or converted afterwards? Perhaps we will never know............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan turner (RIP) Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 not me Puul, fraud prevention was my speciality when I was in The banking business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 From 1964 chertsey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schliesser92 Posted June 11, 2010 Share Posted June 11, 2010 A bloke turned up today to service a forklift and of course, used to be in saracens in NI. He thinks that my saracen may well have been part of a bomb disposal team along with pigs (which would have carried the wheelbarrows). My saracen is up armoured for NI but is also an ACV, it also has two mountings for large radio masts. One of the roles carried out by saracen was apparently to sweep for radio signals and provide jamming signals to stop the detonation of bombs. Does anyone have any info, photos etc about these bomb disposal teams and their equipment? I'd love to be able to see the kind of kit that would have been onboard. Cheers Paul EDit title should of said "used" not "unused". Doh! The equipment used for sweeping radio frequencies (mainly the radio-control band and the codes used) was known as LILLIPUT and was operated by R Signals operators. I don't have any pics or detailed info - as it was extremely highly classified back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 13, 2010 Author Share Posted June 13, 2010 Heres one. If you look at alan turners pics the top two are interior shots, the small panels near the floor (numbered 14 and 20 respectively) are listed in my manual as vents rfc. I have one present on the left side. Does the presence of this mean it was definitely RFC before or is this included on every saracen, even non RFC? Thought it might be a dead giveaway. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillS Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 There are two photos in an article on Saracens the October 2001 issue of Military Machines International which show in-service shots of Mk 5 ACVs with turrets. I also found a photo of a Mk1 turreted ACV in "In National Service" by Pat Ware, again an in-service shot, and I have another culled from somewhere on the internet of a Saracen ACV in Aden which had reverse flow cooling and a turret. Turreted ACVs may not have been common but they definitely existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 (edited) Sarcacen deployed in N.I. Turret top visible above camo netting, Browning gun barrel turned to the offside of the vehicle. Edited June 13, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 (edited) As IU read it, and being no expert, With the comings of the troubles to N.I. changed the situation where most had gone to TA units and others were being used as hard range targets. Saracens were taken out of their various stores and special-duty hiding places and sent to Ulster where they formed the backbone of the APC units. Their numbers were swelled by a batch of Mark 3a's intended for export to Lybia but not sold. These arrived in N.I. in dessert camoflage. Once in the province they were gradually up-armoured with various anti-roit equipment such as CS cannisters or smoke dischargers, anti wire posts to protect the commander, loudspeakers and the like , and even anti RPG bar armour(Operation Kremlin 1 and2) Some saracens have had their turrets removed, whilst variants FV 610 and 604 were stripped of special equipment. Most were used in a purely APC role carrying 10 soldiers, Commander and Driver. Very few retained their Browning M/c gun (but they were held in reserve) although those with turrets often carried riot guns or grenade dischargers in their place. Northern Ireland Saracen after Op Kremlin up-armouring. Edited June 13, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 FV604 converted for use in N.I. Note wire cutter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 (edited) I honestly can't make out if the Saracen following the Pig has a turret or not. I will leave that to your judgement. I would have said yes, but a scan at higher resolution does not make it any clearer. Well I don't know, yes that is a turret, vote now. Edited June 13, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 13, 2010 Author Share Posted June 13, 2010 Hi Antarmike Thanks for the photos. I'm going to say that there isn't a turret on that one. For a start the roof section of a turret would be obscuring the commander alot more if it were opened up. From what I've heard I am making the following assumptions/conclusions regarding my own saracen, given that I don't have the mil reg. 1... it was rfc at some point, quite possibly during it's NI service. 2... it was uparmoured for NI service. 3... there is no evidence to suggest it was used for Lilliput operations as part of a bomb disposal unit, but then there is no evidence to dispute if either. 4.... This is an earlier model of saracen as it doesn't have a dip stick on central or rear bevel boxes 5... It started out as an APC 6.... The turret is original and hasn't been removed/replaced during it's ACV makeover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 Sarcacen deployed in N.I. Turret top visible above camo netting, Browning gun barrel turned to the offside of the vehicle. That's embarrassing. That's my regiment when I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 14, 2010 Share Posted June 14, 2010 (edited) Hi Haybaggerman, The Saracen above (the one following the Pig) definately has a turret, I have the same picture here. The turret is reversed & the commander is leaning on the rear door flap. On my copy you can clearly see the smoke dischargers & the outline of the turret lid behind the commanders shoulders. So my vote is YES it is turreted. Not sure that it is safe to say your Saracen was "uparmoured for NI use" though. As I understand it uparmouring was a general improvment programme for Saracens which were then designated Mk5 & Mk6. Unless of course your motor is covered in Kremlin style wire mesh anti RPG armour (like early bar armour) that stuff was a NI specific measure. Going back to an earlier question. Is your external fuel filler neck round in profile or square & boxed in...&...do you have round or square ventilation fan housings. Round in either case equates to earlier none uparmoured marks, while square in either case equates to up armoured Mk5 &/or 6 See the one posted by Antarmike above, this is a Mk6 which is already uparmored & has then had the Kremlin mesh added. Note the square filler neck. Stick a picture up of your Saracen & lets have a butchers Howard. Edited June 14, 2010 by RecyMech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 Hi Howard I only have a couple of pictures taken when it arrived. Definitely uparmoured I say, with vision blocks and welded side flaps etc See what you think Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 14, 2010 Author Share Posted June 14, 2010 Regarding ACV's with turrets, according to the Alvis Saracen Family by Bill Munro (excellant book if you dont have it, loads of copes on ebay) it says (p62) "the Royal Armoured Corps would also convert some FV603B's to ACV's for use as signals vehicles. Some retained the turret but those that did not had the anti aircraft gun mounting ring moved forward to where the turret had been. The conversions would be numbered as the FV604 ACV" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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