haybaggerman Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) A bloke turned up today to service a forklift and of course, used to be in saracens in NI. He thinks that my saracen may well have been part of a bomb disposal team along with pigs (which would have carried the wheelbarrows). My saracen is up armoured for NI but is also an ACV, it also has two mountings for large radio masts. One of the roles carried out by saracen was apparently to sweep for radio signals and provide jamming signals to stop the detonation of bombs. Does anyone have any info, photos etc about these bomb disposal teams and their equipment? I'd love to be able to see the kind of kit that would have been onboard. Cheers Paul EDit title should of said "used" not "unused". Doh! Edited June 7, 2010 by haybaggerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 7, 2010 Share Posted June 7, 2010 Hunt around for a copy of 'Braver Men Walk Away, by Peter Gurney. he describes theuse of saracens in NI for bomb disposal. It's now out of print. I got a copy through Amazon dealer service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) Hi, I'm fully prepared to be shot down in flames here but my understanding is;- The ACV was (hull wise) just a modified infantry APC on the Mk2 (normal height hull with the little wings poking out of the upper hull & tent framework on the rear) The ATO teams in NI though only used normal APCs & not the ACV, as far as I'm aware. I've collected a few pics of ATO Saracens in NI & they all appear to be Mk6 APC with the RFC (reverse flow cooling) kit. I've also got pictures of the ACVs & none appear to have the mesh head light & tail light guards common to NI use. You say it has been "uparmoured for NI use". My understanding is that Saracens were upgraded & uparmoured from Mk5 onwards but this had nothing to do with NI specifically. Pigs however were uparmoured specifically for NI under Operation Bracelet in order to meet the armour piercing bullet threat posed by the IRA. Pigs were certainly fitted with anti mine radio jamming gear though. But the ACV only made it as far as the Mk2 & was not part of the general uparmouring programme, it was replaced by the high roof ACP (armoured command post) which again I've not seen used in NI. So, does your ACV have round or square ventilation fan housings, & a round or square fuel filler neck? If round in both cases then it is not 'uparmoured'. Any sign of wire mesh cages having been fitted over the headlights ? Howard. Edited June 8, 2010 by RecyMech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Just to self correct my last post.....having scoured a few more pictures, I've just found a shot of an uparmoured ACV, so it looks like ACVs did make it past Mk2 (I stand erected).....but still no signs of any NI gear on it though. I shall keep looking...... Howard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Hi Its definitely uparmoured, vision blocks, extra armour and new drivers seat (not sure of relevance of last one). It looks like it may once have been RFC, I'll post a couple of pics and would be interested in your oppinion. It certainly started life as a mark 2 (2 piece turret) APC, the uparmouring also includes a metal skirt around the bottom of the turret (presumed that was to keep out fire bombs etc). Will come back with pics this pm. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 it was replaced by the high roof ACP (armoured command post) I see nothing to argue about in your post except this line. The ACP was ACPRA, a Command Post Royal Artillery. Command Troop 15/19H got them issued by mistake in 1977 and they very quickly got sent back to be replaced by ACVs which we retained until we band new shiny (well they were matt actually ...) Sultans in 1979. The ACV may have been replaced within the RA field HQ set-up, but most definitely not universally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saracenstump Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 just to throw a spanner in the works mine was a mk1 converted to mk2 standard had rfc fitted them removed converted to acv and up armored and served in NI as you can see where the light guards were fitted and removed and possibly the hull may have been electrified?as its got funny brackets inside but still retains a mk2 drivers seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 I thought there was a photo onthe board of a Remote control Eager Beaver on Bomb Disposal, and I thought there was another vehicle in the shot. (It might have been a Saracen, but try as I might to search for the photo I can't find it. ) Does anyone remeber the shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 just to throw a spanner in the works mine was a mk1 converted to mk2 standard had rfc fitted them removed converted to acv and up armored and served in NI as you can see where the light guards were fitted and removed and possibly the hull may have been electrified?as its got funny brackets inside but still retains a mk2 drivers seat. Photos PLEASE, especially of the brackets inside. Please see my next post regarding poss RFC. Thanks Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 Right here are a few photos as evidence of poss. rfc, can you confirm if I'm right please. 1... There are two bolt holes on the grill, did this mount the front cowling for rfc or perhaps horizontal bars for pushing 2... There is a welded plate over each rear engine cover. The welding is a bit poor. Would beehive intakes have been mounted here? The photos I have seen show the beehives completely replacing the engine lids. 3... There do seem to be some unnecessary bolts around teh front lights. Did these mount light gaurds? 4... The front hatch hits the back stop way before it reaches the engine covers, this reduces visibility alot. Was this because beehive air intakes were present before. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Just been checking photos again & I found a close up of the head light guards on a Mk6, those two redundant bolts in the outside edge of the wing match perfectly where the covers are hinged on this Mk6. Also, the Mk5 ACV I found pictures of earlier (found two more since) also has that welded plate on the rear engine covers & the long hatch stop bracket on both. One shot shows the hatch open & you're right it comes down no where near horizontal. Also found a pic of an infantry Mk5 with that same welded plate....so it's not just confined to ACVs. You may be onto something with it being ex-RFC there. Was there a retro-fit programme at some point to convert those cancelled Libyan Mk6s back to temperate climate spec possibly ?? Mk6s with beehives seem to have either a very short hatch stop with a rubber bump pad or nothing there at all. Maybe the hatch stop bracket is from earlier non RFC vehicles, but the addition of the welded plate raises it up ? Or maybe it's deliberate to make pulling the hatch back shut a little less heavy. Still hav'nt found any reference of ACV in service in NI though (yet anyway) Quote Alien;- The ACV may have been replaced within the RA field HQ set-up, but most definitely not universally. Point taken, must stop listening to the rumour mill. Saracen....most facinating motor...IN THE WORLD! Howard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saracenstump Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 how about this one?http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/f2p4r.jpg Title: British Army Vehicles at St Peter's School [F2P4] Description: British Army (BA) vehicles parked on the playing field of St Peter's Secondary School in Creggan Estate. The grounds of the school were requisitioned by the BA following operation 'Motor Man' on 31 July 1972. Photographer: Eamon Melaugh Date Taken: 1 August 1972 (?) Location: St Peter's School, Circular Road, Creggan, Derry Copyright: © Eamon Melaugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 8, 2010 Author Share Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) Yes, there is definitely an ACV there, although with turret removed. It makes sense that an ACV would be used for signal sweeping and jamming as the extra equipment would require the external gensets and battery stowage bins, also the welded mast mounts on the roof. Interestingly, the three saracen APC's in the photo are RFC, much more effective against petrol bombs as ordinary cooling would suck fire into the engine compartment. However, the ACV is not RFC, suggesting a less confrontational role. Paul Edited June 8, 2010 by haybaggerman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Damn it all sir, tish & piffle the mans found one !!!:shocked: Well roger me with the wrong end of a rag mans trumpet :nut: Another rumour ticked off & dispelled for all time. H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 Further more the two lighter ones with RFC appear to be in sand colour. Part of the cancelled Libyan order per-chance ? H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 My brother in law was an RCT driver; a bunch of them came over from Bielefeld and withdrew from storage at Coventry airport Saracens destined for Libiya they were all finished in Lt Stone. He told me they drove them for a couple of weekls in N.I. before they were gradually repainted. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 I thought there was a photo onthe board of a Remote control Eager Beaver on Bomb Disposal, and I thought there was another vehicle in the shot. (It might have been a Saracen, but try as I might to search for the photo I can't find it. ) Does anyone remeber the shot? Found photo--- no Saracen, my mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Yes, there is definitely an ACV there, although with turret removed. Apart from an ACV I have seen being restored on this forum, I never saw a Saracen ACV with a turret, and I passed that comment on the owner's blog. Why would an ACV need a turret? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haybaggerman Posted June 9, 2010 Author Share Posted June 9, 2010 Hi Alien Yes, that one is mine. It needs a turret to give the commander headroom when drinking tea. Thats what I've found so far anyway. Cheers Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saracenstump Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 when i got mine i thought it was quite a rare one as most i've seen were apc's but now there abit like jeeps, everywhere....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecyMech Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I have gathered pictures of several ACVs with & without turrets, so although I don't really know why they would or would`nt have them....the fact is that some do. Howard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I have gathered pictures of several ACVs with & without turrets, so although I don't really know why they would or would`nt have them....the fact is that some do. Howard I could be wrong here, and maybe there were ACVs with turrets, in which case I'll have a slice of that nice-looking (but I'll guess bitter tasting) humble pie, please. The key word in your reply is "do". I have been following a thread either here or on ARRSE about an LAD 432 with a turret user-modded onto the commander's position (and I have at home a book about a Wehrmacht heavy independent self-propelled anti-tank battalion with Elefants, whose LAD had a Bergepanther and user-modded it by sticking a PzKpfw 4 turret onto it) so there is no denying that a turret can be added to a Saracen, and that there now exist Saracen ACVs with turrets. In service, I never saw one. In fact, as a slight aside, I now struggle to remember how the commander's hatch closed on a non-turreted Saracen ACV. Was there a cover that slid to the rear? Show me a picture of a Saracen ACV IN SERVICE with a turret and you'll convince me that some Saracen ACVs in service had turrets and that slice of humble pie will be mine. Until then,please excuse me if I continue to wear my sceptical hat. No offence intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 I have seen several Saracen Mk 5 ACVs with turrets which were direct from the MoD. Just because you didn't see them in service, didn't mean they weren't there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 Show me a picture of a Saracen ACV IN SERVICE with a turret and you'll convince me that some Saracen ACVs in service had turrets and that slice of humble pie will be mine. Until then,please excuse me if I continue to wear my sceptical hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted June 10, 2010 Share Posted June 10, 2010 So that'll be a slice of humble pie and, er, have you somewhere I can dispose of this sceptical hat, please? It's a poor day when you don't learn something new. I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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