ferrettkitt Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I remember watching Blue Peter in 1978 when one of the incarnations of HMS Ark Royal was retired, the presenter went to the scrapyard where Ark Royal was going to scrapped and said here whats left of HMS Eagle... not much thats for shaw just keel plates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Phil Munga I'm sure some old 500 gallon fuel tanks would serve the same purpose Consider how much damage the thin stowage boxes suffer, compared to oil tanks stowage boxes are sturdy. Elsewhere masonary targets have been tried. some concrete block built "tanks" were used in eastern block training areas but probably only for light weapons such as MGs and RPGs. diliberate tests were run by MOD using the HESH shell from the comparatively small calibre 76mm Scorpion against a wall one round the masonary was gone (see Goerge fortys book on the Scorpion CVR(T).). Apart from that what would happen to old tanks if they were not targeted. Bob Griffin lists over 250 Chieftain tanks being smelted in his book on Chieftains it could easily be as many as 500 by now. Something I found in a scrap yard straight from the manufacturer to the scrappy, in the next skip were a pair of mine rollers (the gun in the turret was wood!) Steve ac turret.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Toolman Have you got anymore photos of Ferrets from Warcop? Sorry the Mk4 shown was the only Ferret I saw, the only vehicles pending targeting were a couple of Chieftains **SP** or **MS** numbered and may have been development tanks such as Chieftain 800-900 etc but by then I had run out of film. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) AlienFTM "Looks to me for all the world like a Tiger 1 turret on its side." However, he assured us that at the time most of the targets were 6' by 4' by 6" rectangles of steel armour plate removed from the carrier Ark Royal (either following an upgrade or a decommissioning). So you're the one who started the German tank turret rumour Eh:). I don't know if these plates would be from the either Eagle or Ark Royal (which were sister ships or at least started out as such) neither were scrapped at that time Eagle laided up Ark Royal still in commision, Eagle scrapping started 1978 followed by Ark Royal decommision in 1979, scrapping started in 1980. however it is possible that the only place were 6inch plates existed on these ships (a 4.5 backed with 1.5 inch plate) were on the ends of the hanger, which could be the source if altered (as you say) during an upgrade, larger aircraft requiring a enlarged hanger. There are many 180lb naval plates on various ranges, I seen them with set screw mountings which probably mean they came off pre ww2 ship, certainly it is said those on Sennybridge are off the belt of an old cruiser, but without records who knows! Steve Edited December 1, 2009 by steveo578 spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) Adrian Barrell Bear in mind the MOD purchased several Sherman Grizzlies from Ian MacGregor for use as targets in the 1980s. I assume he had failed to sell them privately beforehand. I have been told 10 at £4000 a piece many were promtly retrieved. I would be interested anyone has any photos of those that were destroyed at Warcop, they may be tank no. 91 and 134 and probably would have this number painted like a "bort" number on the hull sides. There may have been more than two placed on this range. Steve Edited December 1, 2009 by steveo578 addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 hi steve do you know what the turret in #27 came off, it looks a little like a saxon turret?what do you think.I remember the idea of retro fitting the saxons in bosnia back in 94 with them, but nothing ever came of it,so i never saw one in the flesh but it looks familiar .cheers eddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) eddy8men Hi eddy you're fairly close it is the prototype Vickers Twin 7.62mm GPMG turret as was fitted to At105 supplied to Malaysian Police in the 1980s so could well have been considered for Saxon the prototype was scrapped in 1999 and may have been used to trial the single 7.62mm gun mount hence the monting of only one dummy weapon. The single mount turret was used by Burnii and Omani internal security vehicles. Steve Edited December 2, 2009 by steveo578 addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) Brooky As regards the Churchills i can remember seeing them before they were towed out onto the range (that was in the days when it was pretty much open acess to the ranges and a Sunday ride out in the car to the ranges was considered a treat in our house) The year would be about 1970 and from memory they were bridgelayers with the one piece bridge probably Churchills IV. They were complete with the bridge. I also seem to think there was a Valentine but it was a long time ago and memory may be playing tricks!!! I'm surprised that the bridges were on the vehicles, the date is certainly in keeping with the last days of the Churchills, last parade was at Honne in 1965. Certainly one of the photos shown in Eddy8men's posts could be a Mk7 Bridgelayer the 3 Churchills that I saw on Warcop were gun tanks-no fittings on the hull front. A bit later in the cadet force we used Warcop for excercises and the brief always included a warning not to pick anything up from the raqnges as it may still be live..........again H&S taking a low profile. I did a Cadet thing on Otterburn in 1968- we struggled along not seeing a single tank all day, as the sun started to fall, our officer and his sergeant became convinced they spotted a tank on the top of a distant hill, my mate kenny whined- "Steve says it's a pile of stone with a stick stuck in the side - don't bother, if Steve says it's not a tank it's not a tank" - An hour later we were all back in camp disappointed that it was the "trig point" that had fallen over. If only I had a camera in those days!!!! It's so easy these days with mobile phones -happy snapped! Steve Edited December 2, 2009 by steveo578 grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Could'nt agree more, old chap. It is almost scandalous to destroy historic vehicles in such a manner... I agree, BUT, you have to consider the M.O.D policy of. Once an equipment is obsolete it has no Tactical value. BUT, it can still serve a usefull purpose as a training aid. IE: A hard target. The M.O.D isnt really interested in restoring or maintaining running examples of obsolete vehicles. it,s primary purpose is training for the defense of the realm. If a vehicle becomes a hard target for training purposes, then it saves making or buying in something at extra cost. In CERTAIN quarters, there are people who are mostly helpfull in saving the odd rare example of anything here & there. but in general, if it's not of Tatcal value, it's scrap. this policy has changed a bit over the past few years in that th M.O.D has realised that if you SELL, something. Then it's pennies back in the coffers rather than just casting aside & writing stuff off. in these finacially challenging times, they are only too aware that some finacial returns go back into a hard pressed system for the purchase of more modern equipments! Hence the firmly established ,changed set up at Withams! :coffee: Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 So you're the one who started the German tank turret rumour Eh:). You're telling me I started a rumour about a German tank turret on Warcop ranges? OOooOOH! Pull up a sandbag. The following night our course stood guard over the firing point. Alien made sure he got first stag. He told his fellow prowler of his plan to walk down the range road and find and check out the Tiger turret he'd seen the previous day. This was strictly forbidden: especially in the pitch dark of a February night, not least because of the likelihood of there being unexploded ordnance lying around. His mukker, Pete, the young Life Guard was not exactly enamoured of the idea. One night back in barracks in Catterick shortly after the two household cavalrymen had joined them for the gunnery course (Pete had found himself in the next bedspace to Alien), he had told Alien how, in Household Division Basic Training, they had fired live SMG rounds at each other at extreme 200m range, confident that their heavy greatcoats would stop the last energy of any 9mm round that actually hit. Alien hadn't believed him for one minute, but he had smiled and nodded. Now Pete couldn't very well back down from walking down the range for a nose about. They set off walking westward down the range. It was slightly downhill most of the way and it took no time to get where Alien reckoned the tiger turret to be. However, everything looked completely different up close and they didn't find it. They did find some of the other targets, though. Some targets were hessian screens on wooden frames; other hard targets were, so Ginge had informed, six foot squares cut from the six inch thick armour plating from the flight deck of the last decommissioned HMS Ark Royal aircraft carrier. In the target area, they started up the opposite hillside, which nicely presented the targets to gunners at the firing point. As they rose up a few yards, they looked northward and realised they were looking down a valley obscured from the firing point. The day had been clear and now at night there was only the occasional cloud scampering across the nearly full moon behind them, to the south. They stood in silence and took in the view. They realised that at the foot of the valley there was a lot of activity. People were walking about shining torches (and probably ruining one another's night vision, thought Alien) and the voices of barked orders from NCOs carried on the wind. They concluded that this was the Infantry Junior Leaders ("boy brats") also currently at Warcop, out playing soldiers on their battle camp. They continued to watch and it was only a few minutes before all the lights went out. The moon came out from behind a particularly large cloud. Alien worked out the angles and determined that from down in that valley, the moon, four days from full, would be right behind him. He took an enormous breath, then roared an enormous werewolf-like howl that echoed around the valleys for many seconds. It seemed that Alien's years on the terraces at Roker Park had not been wasted. In the time it took his banshee howl to roll down the valley, one or two lights came back on. Alien had taken a second breath and let it rip again. Now all the lights came back on and the commotion, even in the dark, was palpable. Alien let rip another couple of howls and the pair stood and laughed at the scamperings going on down the valley, like a column of ants whose road has been blocked. Eventually Pete, who by coincidence was also a Geordie, said, “H'away man, Alien, yer even beginning to get me scared, man. Givower.” They'd had their fun and were ready to go by now anyway, so they set off back eastward after one last look down the valley to their north. They quickly rejoined the metalled road.and started to make good time back up to the firing point. They had not gone more than twenty yards on metalled road when Alien glanced over his shoulder, turned to Pete and screamed, “Don't look back! Just run!” and he took a couple of paces. Pete, who clearly had been spooked by the banshee wailing earlier, was off. Alien stopped and laughed. “You soft lad. Talk about gullible.” Alien laughed long and loud at his mukker's discomfort ... but not that long. Hardly had they restarted back up the hill when there was a sudden loud rattling and banging right behind them. This time they were both off up the hill without looking round. Alien's curiosity got the better of him though because he knew there weren't really werewolves and banshees in the Cumbrian hills. He stopped after no more than ten metres and turned ... to find a flock of sheep had stepped off the soft, noise-deadening mud onto the metalled road, where their hooves suddenly clattered as they ran across, disturbed by a pair of dickheads playing games on their land. Extracted from A Tracked Armoured Car (not yet in print) - names changed for logical continuity and some $%*%^$%£$ing swearing desensitised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooky Posted December 3, 2009 Share Posted December 3, 2009 I'm surprised that the bridges were on the vehicles, the date is certainly in keeping with the last days of the Churchills, last parade was at Honne in 1965. Certainly one of the photos shown in Eddy8men's posts could be a Mk7 Bridgelayer the 3 Churchills that I saw on Warcop were gun tanks-no fittings on the hull front. May be right, it was a long time ago!!! I cant even remember how many there were!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Brooky May be right, it was a long time ago!!! Didn't mean your memory was error, on the contrary, I would think that the bridges themselves would have been so useful on the range and would be taken by range crews, but the bridges themselves would last no time as a target. The number up there would vary over time probably the earliest would be the Gun tanks and then the WW2 AVREs then the BLs and possibly post war specials. As to the Valentine perfectly possible -after all a Valentine DD was discarded by Bovington and probably ended up somewhere. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 (edited) AlienFTM You're telling me I started a rumour about a German tank turret on Warcop ranges? OOooOOH! I thought it was a confession:). Interesting extract, they had fired live SMG rounds at each other at extreme 200m range, confident that their heavy greatcoats would stop the last energy of any 9mm round that actually hit. I heard a similar thing but it involved double folded service blankets - it really neads to be tried on mythbusters, I'm certain there must be a jackanory section in Q Regs. A Sterling fired super charged 9mm so it would be unwise to say the least:??? Re the tiger tank turret, over the years there were various turrets on Warcop some like the Chieftain turrets south west of N ridge are probably still there. However here's my explantion of what you may have seen. In the Churchill gallery I post this photo of a Conqueror ARV 1 at Warcop. I don't know when this ARV arrived on Warcop but 1976 is not beyond reason. Look at the superstructure, with the escape hatch it looks like a Tiger tank turret especially viewed through a site with a ridge or fold of ground in the foreground. I am not saying however that in earlier time German wrecks were not on gunery ranges, indeed as you are an ex north easterner you may have heard of a old RAF range called Goswick (near Sea houses) during WW2 a Marder 2 -the one with 76mm Russian A/T was put out as a target. Other ranges have persistant rumours of German artifacts, all may have an element of truth but almost all are long gone. Once I was looking for wrecks on a RAF range and saw what I thought was a tank turret at a great distance, so I got as close as I could via road/track. Observing again, "looks like a Comet without a mantlet but the cupola is on the wrong side- wow it's a A43 Super Churchill- got to get there", so after about a mile or more of walking it revealed itself as the remains of an ex RAF bedford CF van. The additional photo is a ferret 1 used a a plate target support on a mobile target range. Churchill hull against Conqueror ARv Mk1 -p2.jpg ferret 1.jpg Steve Edited December 4, 2009 by steveo578 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolman Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 Poor old ferret :cry: It looks like it's got some additional towing eyes welded on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 I thought it was a confession:). Interesting extract, I heard a similar thing but it involved double folded service blankets - it really neads to be tried on mythbusters, I'm certain there must be a jackanory section in Q Regs. A Sterling fired super charged 9mm so it would be unwise to say the least:??? Steve It could help if the 9mm is on its last energy. A WW2 veteran I know went home for rest. His mother unpacked his small pack and found a bullit in his messtin, he never noticed it. Just a matter of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Other ranges have persistant rumours of German artifacts, all may have an element of truth but almost all are long gone.Steve Tucked away in Bovvy is a Panther F Schmalturm. A refresher. Panther A, B and C were pre-production. Panther D was the first service version. When they worked on the next Ausfuehrung, somebody misheard E (pronounced eh in German) and heard it as ah - A, and the second iteration of Panther was therefore, not-logically, Panther A. The final production Panther was the G. "So what happened to F?" I hear you ask. Panther F was a major redesign featuring among other things simpler road wheels (which became standard on late Tiger 1s) and layout and a longer, narrow turret or Schmalturm. It became known as Panther II before eventually being reworked again and becoming Tiger II. The RAC were mortified when they realised that one of the hard targets at Lulworth was in fact the only known remaining Panther II Schmaltrum. It was recovered to Bovvy and tidied up as far as possible (which wasn't much) and put on display to demonstrate the effects of armour-defeating rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I have found two different sizes of German halftrack track sections as well as three links of Tiger 1 battle track on Salisbury Plain. There used to be a good selection of German AFVs on Lulworth including Panther and Pz III. All long gone sadly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) First the genealogy of the panther is D production Jan to Sept 1943 with a small number of training vehicles refered to as D1 (60mm hull armour. A production August 1943 to May 1944 G production March 1944 to April 1945 F 8 hulls which may be the Panther 2 hulls/ also 1 turret completed that being the turret in Bovington. Panther 2 hull to Fort Knox. The wheels of late Panther G and those to be fitted to Panther F and Panther 2 were the steel rimmed type with the rubber instert, which cannot be classed as a simplified wheel type. Please view B/W photo form a Canadian magazine which shows the damaged Gerat 710 (s 605) purporting to be at "back range at Bovington" this was published in 1978 and was probably a while earlier, Exactly who the photograph is attributed to was not given- therefore it is difficult to confirm the location. The reason for my last point is that from my memory the by then badly damaged turret was returned to Bovington not from Lulworth but from somewhere on the SPTA where it had graduated to the top of a Conqueror ARV. Steve Schmallturn 605.jpg Edited December 8, 2009 by steveo578 addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The wheels of late Panther G and those to be fitted to Panther F and Panther 2 were the steel rimmed type with the rubber instert, which cannot be classed as a simplified wheel type.[/url] When I use the term simplified, I was 1. thinking of less rubber that could not be imported and 2. as touched upon, the layout was simplified so that if a centre inside wheel needed to be replaced, it was not necessary to remove almost the whole suspension from that side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The resilient steel tired wheel fitted to the Panther -(a Russian design from early KVs) was that it could take a higher loading than a standard rubber road wheel, which in the case of the Panther was at its limit of development, having been aready re-enforced during the Panther D production. The resilient wheel had a longer running life allbeit at the expense of increased inner track wear. the amount of rubber used was not greatly different considering the inner bonding flanges. The manufacturing costs would be higher. As for rubber imports it is significant that Russia discontinued resilient wheels on heavy tanks and partially discontinued using rubber wheels on other tanks until supplies of synthetic rubber could be made available through Lend Lease. The Allies war effort was badly dislocated by the loss of Far Eastern rubber supplies in 1942, Germany on the other hand managed to produce synthetic rubber thoughout WW2 despite the effort made to disrupt its production by bombing the oil plants in Polesti Romania. Your point on wheel removal has merit if the Panther 2 was built with the same design of track fitted to Tiger 2 and E50, if so configured it would "only" require the removal of two outer wheels to remove the an inner wheel. The Panther F as far as I can tell, would have used the dual torsion bar system as fitted to standard Panthers with the Tiger resilient wheel- the only know and photographed turreted F prototype was based on a Standard G with standard rubber wheels. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Your combined knowledge of Panther running gear astounds me!:wow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Well I bow to Steve's superior knowledge as it is a subject I haven't looked at in 30 years and my memory is full of lots of other useless stuff now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazz Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 My memory is very much the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I wanted to add something but forgot it. :rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderChuff Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 As to the Valentine perfectly possible -after all a Valentine DD was discarded by Bovington and probably ended up somewhere. Steve There is a Valentine DD which turns up at the Great Central Railway on occasion. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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