Warcop range wrecks

[steveo578]

CommanderChuff

There is a Valentine DD which turns up at the Great Central Railway on occasion.

 

 

The only Valentine DD I am aware of is owned by John Pearson, it was bought in an estate sale auction of the Ellard collection in the mid 1980s, there were two Valentines one a standard gun tank went to A.F. Budge and the other the DD was bought by Mr Pearson and completed in an extended rebuild,- it has been seen at a number of Bovington open days and memorial events.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the Valentine DD that was disposed of by Bovington, in the past Directors of the Tank Museum have taken what now may appear to be bazaar decissions as regards exhibits and what constitutes a tank, for example there have been disputes as to whether Infantry Carriers, which are of course not tanks, have a place in the collection. In the 1970s a "spare" Tortoise was sent for targeting (probably to Lulworth) these days it would probably have gone to USA.

 

Steve

[mcspool]

in the past Directors of the Tank Museum have taken what now may appear to be bazaar decissions as regards exhibits and what constitutes a tank, for example there have been disputes as to whether Infantry Carriers, which are of course not tanks, have a place in the collection.

 

When I went to collect the Ram Kangaroo for Mill, I remember one of the workshop staff telling me that way back (probably in the 1950s) the museum was offered complete and running Ram Kangaroos which were then struck off charge. They did not accept the offer. But I feel one cannot blame them. There is always a point in time when things seem to be abundant, and no-one feels the need to save all that old equipment. The same happened to overhauled war-reserve stock Centurion ARVs in the 90s, they were driven onto the ranges to be shot up (same source).

 

Hanno

[Nick Johns]

I have found two different sizes of German halftrack track sections as well as three links of Tiger 1 battle track on Salisbury Plain.

 

 

I have some pics I took in the late 60's early 70's on the Plain of a well shot up but complete German 1/2 track, and nearby a complete 88mm gun!

Have dozens of 35mm colourslides to go through and scan

[steveo578]

mcspool

The same happened to overhauled war-reserve stock Centurion ARVs in the 90s, they were driven onto the ranges to be shot up

 

 

Hi Hanno

 

Like this one, (not on Warcop) 06ZR58 used in the 1991 Gulf War returned to UK overhauled and by 1994 arrived for hard targeting.

 

In the 1950s the rational of the Tank Museum seemed to regard only British tanks as having any validity, however it was still unable work out what to acquire or even retain, the classic failures with this regard were A13 MkV Coventanter (of which there were a number in varrying condition at MEE/FVRDE in the 1950s) A24 Cavalier and A27 Centaurs, but there was no consistency in the acquisitions, several examples of Churchill were missed notably the small turreted Mk1/2s several of which were still being used a mobile and dead loads by REME and RCT well into the 1950s. Missing out on automotively intact Ram Kangaroos was a great pity, by finding a ex range turret a half decent example of this interesting vehicle could have been in the collection at an earlier date, I was very disappointed on my first visit to Bovington that there wasn't an example of this tank.

 

Steve

06ZR58.jpg

Edited December 10, 2009 by steveo578
grammar

[steveo578]

Nick Johns

 

There were a number of ex wehmacht artillery pieces on SPTA - including examples of 150mm and 170mm guns.

[John Pearson]

In the late 1980's there were the remains of 3 Valentines on Warcop, many Ferrets, several M10's and about a dozen Churchills. The Valentines were all mk 1's and not related to the missing Valentine VDD from Bovington which went off as a hard target to Lulworth in the mid 50's when the Sherman DD turned up. My Valentine IXDD did indeed come from an auction in 1984. It was never scrapped, shot at or sunk in the sea, all things people have told me happened to it when I have been demonstrating it!

[Adrian Barrell]

If all those things happen when you demonstrate it John, you should be more careful! :-D

[steveo578]

John

 

Thanks for the input, with reference to the Valentine Mk1, I would imagine these tanks were far from the tank target lines. I was aware of a couple of AFVs one at least with the dislodged remains of a turret at or about NY188754 to the east of a small wood which is about +500m north of N ridge- the main tank target area. In hindsight, these could have been Valentines, but being time constrained as I was there to get photos of the Conqueror ARV Mk1 to the west, the M10Cs near Middle Fell and to see if anything left of the M4A1 Grizzlies. Additionally by the time I spotted them with standard 10x50s I was disincled to walk back up Long Fell, it is possible that I missed this area completely on the way to the Middle Fell. The Grizzlies may still have been there in the late 1980s not far from a pair of M47.

 

Steve

[John Pearson]

Steve,

I don't have a map unfortunately so cannot check your map reference and it was about 25 years ago! As I recall, the area was one where the firing took place into overhanging rocky crags. At the bottom of the hill were the Churchills but could not really see how they were being hit - mortars or aircraft perhaps? Part way up the hill were a couple of M10's with GMC engines in, the back plate of one finished off a vehicle obtained from Pounds, there was a turret from a Churchill Mk IV, upside down with a cut off 75 mm gun tube stuck into it and higher up, just under the crags were the Valentines. All three were completely smashed, like an airfix kit that someone had stood on and were partly sunk into the ground. I loaded a turret by hand/crowbar as it had been smashed into individual pieces. Not far from the Churchills, I remember a Cent and a few Ferrets. Do not remember any M47's although there used to be some on most ranges then: I think they came from Italy or Spain, specifically to become targets.

I remember it always seemed to be bloody cold every time I went there!

[steveo578]

John

 

Again thanks for the info, my map ref isn't where you found the Valentines ( I used multimap as reference as some-one borrowed my Warcop map and didn't return it) ,

 

The escarpment you mention is part of Middle Fell , you will find a photo of the M10c that was gutted in my post #12, these have been cleared by now, I remember the old Churchill with the inverted turret- a remanufactured model with applique hull armour. Certainly when I was there I only saw one ferret, between the churchills and N ridge, but my visit was not a comprehensive as I would have wanted. I would think that they were targeted by artilery and mortars -the area on the escarpment still shows shell holes, can't ever remember see any ref. of the use of aircraft on this range. I remember seeing a newsreel of Valentine hard against a rock face being burned, targeted with grenades and explosives- but may not be Warcop.

 

I always wondered about the story that your tank turret was assembled from pieces, the jackanory I was told was that you got it from the old Mk1s on Sennybridge,- your rebuild is certainly a source of many AFV myths.

 

The M47s were down on the tank target line which is shown in my post #6 and 12. and obviously these tanks don't survive that long

 

Regards

 

Steve

[No Signals]

Thanks for posting this kind of stuff guys, fascinating reading to find out this background info. Keep it coming!

[John Pearson]

John

 

Again thanks for the info, my map ref isn't where you found the Valentines ( I used multimap as reference as some-one borrowed my Warcop map and didn't return it) ,

 

The escarpment you mention is part of Middle Fell , you will find a photo of the M10c that was gutted in my post #12, these have been cleared by now, I remember the old Churchill with the inverted turret- a remanufactured model with applique hull armour. Certainly when I was there I only saw one ferret, between the churchills and N ridge, but my visit was not a comprehensive as I would have wanted. I would think that they were targeted by artilery and mortars -the area on the escarpment still shows shell holes, can't ever remember see any ref. of the use of aircraft on this range. I remember seeing a newsreel of Valentine hard against a rock face being burned, targeted with grenades and explosives- but may not be Warcop.

 

I always wondered about the story that your tank turret was assembled from pieces, the jackanory I was told was that you got it from the old Mk1s on Sennybridge,- your rebuild is certainly a source of many AFV myths.

 

The M47s were down on the tank target line which is shown in my post #6 and 12. and obviously these tanks don't survive that long

 

Regards

 

Steve

 

There is a small degree of truth in saying bits from Sennybridge were used! In fact, the only pieces still on my tank from Sennybrige are the right radiator door, turret traverse mechanism and the gunners seat frame. I did collect a whole Mk 1 turret and put that on the bare hull for some filming, a long time before I reassembled the original 6pdr turret but that 2pdr turret came off in 2001 and never returned. The tank also has drivers doors and roof panel from a range target but those came from Pirbright in Surrey. From Warcop I had another Mk 1 turret, all in pieces but I never reassembled that as I got the Sennybridge one which was complete. My own 6 pdr turret was cut into about a dozen pieces with oxy acetalene in 1947 and I have welded that back together from those pieces, married to a Mk turret ring from New Zealand.

Best myth I have ever been told to my face is that the ID board is wrong: it states it is a Mk IXDD and 'everyone knows that the 6pdr ones were all Mk VIII's.' (The difference is that a Mk IX has a GMC engine and the Mk VIII should have had an AEC but in fact no Mk VIII's were ever made). I said 'Do you think I have owned it for 20+ years and never opened the bonnet???'

[steveo578]

I should have realised a Mk1 turret wasn't right for your tank, I doubt anything on the Mk1 is externally interchangeable -even the pistol ports look different. Its probably a garbeled retelling of the story of your 6pdr turret, that I was told- I suppose it was cut up for smelting.

 

The MkVIII-MkIX thing is interesting was it a case of inability of AEC to supply sufficient motor or a deliberate decission as GM motors would simplify the lend lease requirement.

 

Steve

[John Pearson]

I should have realised a Mk1 turret wasn't right for your tank, I doubt anything on the Mk1 is externally interchangeable -even the pistol ports look different. Its probably a garbeled retelling of the story of your 6pdr turret, that I was told- I suppose it was cut up for smelting.

 

The MkVIII-MkIX thing is interesting was it a case of inability of AEC to supply sufficient motor or a deliberate decission as GM motors would simplify the lend lease requirement.

 

Steve

 

When Vickers ordered Valentines from Canada, it was envisaged that they would make AEC engined ones but supply was a major problem. As a result, the Canadians tried a commercially available engine, the GMC 6.71. This was considered so sucessful that it was later fitted to British Valentines. By later in the War, only Birmingham Railway was still fitting AEC and Vickers, Montreal Railway and both Metro Cammel factories were fitting GMC. Although I think that it was supply driven, the decision was at least as important because of the arrangement of the GMC engine. The AEC runs as it is built and produces about 131 hp but the GMC, by simply changing the injectors and resetting the govenor can produce anything from about 98 to 260 hp, with full reliability. Early Valentines were fitted with a GMC of similar power to the AEC but later ones were heavier so the engine was configured to run at 165 hp. Later still, it was run at 210 for the Valentine Archer 17pdr SP. Now the difference between 131 and 165 hp may not seem much but the rolling resistance alone takes maybe 100 or 110 hp at 15 mph. That means that the AEC only has about 20 hp left over to climb or to turn but the 165 hp GMC has about 55 hp, nearly three times as much and the Archer, 100hp spare or about 5 times as much. I have driven all of the engine types (petrol and deisel AEC and 165 and 210 hp GMC's) and the difference is really noticable. There are documents saying that Mk VIII's were ordered but the AEC engine would not have been powerful enough for the extra weight so they were cancelled. All Bridgelayers and Bishop 25pdr SP's were AEC where the weight was less but all later Valentine gun tanks were GMC's.

[John Pearson]

Sorry, couple of other points: the GMC 6.71 engine is still available, new to special order and up to about 3 years ago, it held the world land speed record for deisel engined vehicles!

 

The other thing is that there were in fact 4 Valentine DD's with the two man, 2 pdr turrets, 2x Mk II and 2x Mk IV's.

[steveo578]

John Pearson

Sorry, couple of other points:

 

 

Fantastic amount of imformation on a much neglected subject, considering the number built there seems to be comparitively few remaining.

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[Ex Army FV434 Instructor]

Can anyone just walk on and help themselves !!! dont quite undersntad is it finders keepers

 

anyone got a spare JCB

 

I'd also keep in mind that we used to fire allsorts at them with the RARDEN's quite often HE (High Explsive) APSE (armour peircing secondery effect) that's explosive and phosphorus !!! as well as Sabot and Prac rounds which I wouldent worry about.

 

The first 2 i would though as i'm sure there must be quite a few that didnt go off

[steveo578]

All ranges can be dangerous.

 

The primary rule is don't pick up stuff ever,:nono:

 

Although some of the stuff in my photo (not warcop) is painted blue this does not mean it is not dangerous many so called inert weapons carry an element to mark the impact on the target.

 

Steve

uxo.jpg

[Ex Army FV434 Instructor]

yes just to clarify that point I obviously meant dont pick up any of them, once its been fired after a couple of years whats left of the paint goes anyway so they all look the same (so you couldent tell one from another anyway)

 

and honestly who in their right mind is going to try picking up live ordenence?

Having said that I read about a French farmer not so long ago who'd been picking shells up and storing them at his farm on the Somme, they reckon they were picking up whats left of him for days.

[agripper]

There are still tons of shells turing up in farmers fields in France and Belgium from both wars. A friend of mine lives in Belgium and knows one of teh farmers . Said that they gave up calling EOD years back as it takes so long, instead they through shells into the hedgerows and where there is enough bits give EOD a call to take them away. Bit scary when you think how many gas shells there where that never went off. Thinks it around 25%?

[steveo578]

A case of familarity breeds contempt, the presence of gas shells are a serious worry as even 90 years on a fresh crack caused by a pough could be enough to release sufficient content to be fatal if handled.

[Bob Grundy]

I suppose I had better make a contribution as I went up to Warcop in the (happy) late 1980's.

Note the early track and red/white/red AFV or tank distinguishing sign on the last photo.

More pics later

Bob

[phil munga]

Passed here today looked very quiet , good photos Bob :-)

[eddy8men]

thanks for the pics bob,

the churchills looked a lot better back in the eighties,unfortunately now they are

nothing more than scrap except for the bogies which seemed to have survived very well

however having said that and looking at what others have said on this forum i'm sure that what is classed as scrap now will be tommorrows restoration project

 

[steveo578]

Nice pictures Bob thanks for sharing,

 

Certainly deteriorated in only a few years, possibly the one in the first photo an early model without hull cones or bolt heads may be one that is still on the Churchill line but the second one a nice Mk4 c/w 6pdr mk5 is almost certainly gone, as far as I know it wasn't on the Churchill ridge in 1992 -well not in that state, although being end on the hull details are impossible to tell- only one still with a turret at that time that I saw was a Mk7. Of course your photos may not be on the Churchill ridge. In the early 1990 some wrecks were pulled onto the tank firing target area at N ridge, there may have been some Churchill hulls behind N ridge in 1992. There was also a huge pile of scrap on one of the hard-standings near musgrave lane on the eastern side of the range, so a lot of clearance took place in the early 1990s.

 

Eddy8man a while ago you asked about a 5inch air outlet on a Churchill, the turreted tank has one.

 

Steve