Warcop range wrecks

[steveo578]

Couple of the Conqueror ARV Mk1 first one showing the mud caked suspension caused by being on its side and the plywood silhoette in the distance which I suppose represents a T72.

 

The second is the interior of the superstructure/winch house, filled with junk.

 

Steve

[John Pearson]

Bob, photo of Grizzly is interesting, I had not seen that one before. I guess that was the trip when you went off and left me to get a borrowed furniture van stuck up to its axles and we had to get a squaddie and a scorpion to pull us out?

Anyway, some get saved: the Army bought a few of the worst Grizzlies from MacGregor to use as targets in about 1983 or 84. What happened to them is shown in photo but one went to Sennybridge and we recovered it in 1986, swapping it for something else but I can't remember what now. It was missing magneto's, carbs and drivers seat but almost everything else was there. It spent some time at the front of Bovy painted as 'Cricklade' then went off to a plinth somewhere else. A couple of weeks ago it was returned to Bovy and will eventually be restored. On the plinth it had had its hatches welded shut and has suffered no losses or damage: for comparison it still has the tin aircleaners either side of the engine door and the transmission still rolls freely. Looking at Bob's photo, it had a very lucky escape. I think that the Isle of Wight Museum may have 'cut and shut' two others into one good one or were those genuine American Shermans?

Same thing happened with a few Churchills and M10's from Pounds yard: Army bought some for targets and a few were swapped and recovered for restoration. Some M47's from Spain (maybe Italy?) also made it into preservation by the same route. At least one T34 as well!

I think some were swapped for big armour plates cut from HMS Albion or Ark Royal (the old ones) of the same weight but others were swapped for scrap vehicles. Ah the good old days!

Edited April 28, 2010 by John Pearson

[steveo578]

John Pearson

......I think that the Isle of Wight Museum may have 'cut and shut' two others into one good one or were those genuine American Shermans?

 

 

 

The two M4A1s were ex McGregor Grizzlies Nos 52 and 76 previously targets on Otterburn, the I of W tank has the front and turret of 52 and the back end of 76.

 

As to the McGregor range wrecks as I said in a previous post there were 10 and 6 were recovered these are No18 at Grosbeek NL, No25 (cricklade bovington) 52 and 76 ex Otterburn the ex Shrivenham tank -went to British base in Germany and No176 went to New Zealand, of the remaining 4 it is possible that 2 No 91 and No 134 were sent to Warcop which leaves 2. It is possible that these were each alocated otterburn and Warcop, Otterburn staff said they had 3 Shermans in 1991 but only 2 have been confirmed, either one was saved early on or a M47 was mistaken for a Sherman.

 

Steve

[Adrian Barrell]

Bob, photo of Grizzly is interesting, I had not seen that one before. I guess that was the trip when you went off and left me to get a borrowed furniture van stuck up to its axles and we had to get a squaddie and a scorpion to pull us out?

Anyway, some get saved: the Army bought a few of the worst Grizzlies from MacGregor to use as targets in about 1983 or 84. What happened to them is shown in photo but one went to Sennybridge and we recovered it in 1986, swapping it for something else but I can't remember what now. QUOTE]

 

I seem to remember you getting your RL stuck on that Sennybridge trip, a bit of a theme there!

[Adrian Barrell]

The two M4A1s were ex McGregor Grizzlies Nos 52 and 76 previously targets on Otterburn, the I of W tank has the front and turret of 52 and the back end of 76.

 

Steve

 

The other halves are now being welded together to revive another Grizzly, so both 52 and 76 survive just not quite as built...!

[oily]

Sad, sad end to a saracen... why so glad to see the end of another one Mr Grundy? just cos you might not like them!.....:blush::blush:

[John Pearson]

Bob, photo of Grizzly is interesting, I had not seen that one before. I guess that was the trip when you went off and left me to get a borrowed furniture van stuck up to its axles and we had to get a squaddie and a scorpion to pull us out?

Anyway, some get saved: the Army bought a few of the worst Grizzlies from MacGregor to use as targets in about 1983 or 84. What happened to them is shown in photo but one went to Sennybridge and we recovered it in 1986, swapping it for something else but I can't remember what now. QUOTE]

 

I seem to remember you getting your RL stuck on that Sennybridge trip, a bit of a theme there!

 

I can get stuck anywhere! Mind you, I was carrying a Valentine turret on the crane hook at the time! Got a long wheelbase landrover stuck on Sennybridge as well once. Loaded with Ferret turret, gas bottles and ferret gearbox, going over the impact area. Bomb hole to left, turned right into a bigger one. When I got out I could rest my elbow on the roof. 3 weeks later discovered drivers door would not shut: had broken the chassis! Also got a Foden EKA (sp?) stuck on Kircudbright: two were sent up from a Newcastle TA unit. We split them up and told each that the other was working on a hard surface so we got each off road at the same time. Everything was fine until both got stuck at the same time and it became obvious that a certain full Colonel had fibbed to the TA drivers. Colonel got a Cheiftain target running to pull theirs out, we did it the hard way by digging and using gun planks and jacks. All worth it though: bits from that trip fixed a comet and charioteer in Finland and the Finns gave Bovy a T26 and a Stug III. On a trip I was not on, Bovy staff managed to get a Stalwart stuck once and that takes some doing!

[eddy8men]

hi fellas

 

sounds like a lot of fun/hard work, i wonder if those days of relatively easy access will ever return or will the remaining targets be left to rot, there's still plenty of salvageable stuff out there i've got my eye on a couple but no way of getting them.

 

any of the old sweats got any ideas on how to go about it ?

 

eddy

[steveo578]

John Pearson

On a trip I was not on, Bovy staff managed to get a Stalwart stuck once and that takes some doing!

 

 

I thought it was one bogged and one o/s -which isn't good, I always wondered who it was that got stuck on Warcop and had to be pulled out by the Scorpion:-D.

 

Incidently the Grizzly in Bobs photo was on an impact area about 500metres up range from the well know November ridge, I think it was designated X ridge (but the marker to the left of the target looks as though it took a hit), just beyond the mobile target track, so about 1500metres from the hard standing, things didn't last long on the hard target areas of these ridges.

 

Steve

[John Pearson]

I thought it was one bogged and one o/s -which isn't good, I always wondered who it was that got stuck on Warcop and had to be pulled out by the Scorpion:-D.

 

Incidently the Grizzly in Bobs photo was on an impact area about 500metres up range from the well know November ridge, I think it was designated X ridge (but the marker to the left of the target looks as though it took a hit), just beyond the mobile target track, so about 1500metres from the hard standing, things didn't last long on the hard target areas of these ridges.

 

Steve

 

What happened was I was chairman of a charity doing transport for the Community. I borrowed their 3 ton Ford truck and went up to Warcop with Bob Grundy's landrover in the back. I drove the furniture van fine off the gravel roads and loaded it up with a flat pack Valentine turret. During the day the 'permafrost' melted and down it went, as far as the chassis rails. Scorpion driver did a good job, did not even charge me! Everyone else goes off on the Scorpion into the gathering night, leaving me to bring the furniture lorry back, but the ground was still soft and it got slower and slower and deeper and deeper, just managed to get to hard ground before it came to a full stop again. It doesn't half get cold up there!

[John Pearson]

hi fellas

 

sounds like a lot of fun/hard work, i wonder if those days of relatively easy access will ever return or will the remaining targets be left to rot, there's still plenty of salvageable stuff out there i've got my eye on a couple but no way of getting them.

 

any of the old sweats got any ideas on how to go about it ?

 

eddy

 

I was walking across Salisbury Plain with a full Colonel (same bloke who had been at Kircudbright see above) I was walking alongside and he asked me if I would walk a bit further away? Sorry I said, is the deodorant not working? Don't be daft he said: if we are close together and one of us sets off a 'blind' (ie unexploded), there will be no one to go for help! Another time, another range, someone called me over. I went and found he had stood on the long nose of a 50 year old PIAT and it had flipped up from the gound and hit his shin. It was still under his foot at about 45 degrees. I got him to VERY slowly raise his foot so it went back into its hole. Ex Disposal later did not even touch it to put the demolition charge on it. They laid it alongside as it was much too dangerous to touch.

In a world where I am not allowed to climb a ladder more than 2 meteres or use ordinary household paint without a written risk assessment, do you think that access will ever be granted to civies/volunteers in the future? Sorry but I think not!

[eddy8men]

hi john

thanks for the reply,looks like i'll have to bribe the recy mech's next time they go out to move the targets :cool2:

it's funny looking back now but i thought it would be a relatively simple affair to find a disused target and recover and restore it but then i've always been an optimist. it's just not acceptable to leave these ww2 vehicles to rot and let's face it somebody some day will move them off the range,( if they're no longer required ). it's only a matter of when and who. as always it'll be a case of not what you know but who you know and i'd like to be in a position that gives me a crack at it.

it's not just owning an mv i want, it's about saving something that i believe to be a historic vehicle, one that our fathers and grand fathers fought and died in. that's got to be worth all the ball ache, whether i succeed or not it won't be through lack of trying.

 

eddy

Edited May 1, 2010 by eddy8men

[tim gray]

Hi guys,

 

Hate to say this as an ex Royal Engineer, but i remember in the 70,s going from newcastle to otterburne and readsdale ranges to colect the empty cases and link from the ranges to flog to the heavy metal guys as belts.

 

Distinctly remember shot up churchills lying around up thier, early ones as they had the square side hatches and rounded cast turrets. Some were only slightly perforated whilst others were absolutley hammerd.

 

Gone are those days. Looking at the pics of the some of the churchills you would think that a couple of wheel stations would be rescuable.

[ajmac]

Thinking outside the box... I hate that turn of phrase.. anyway, what is the situation on international ranges? Presumably Canada, Australia, India, etc must have ranges that at sometime have had Allied wartime AFVs as hard targets. I mentioned the former USSR previously and I believe it is very difficult to transfer armour to private hands in the USA at the current time. Have all the Western European ranges been cleared of WW2 armour by now?

[eddy8men]

hi alistair

denmark has a few achilles, mostly on oksbollergen i think, there's some stuff still on the german ranges, but that's all i've found so far, try this site www.hartziel.de

you don't need to travel so far as there's 2 cromwells off brecklesham bay and 5 or 6 valentines in the solway firth, you can dive them if you're qualified.

i started looking at tanks in poland before i realised there's more than enough on our own doorstep only trouble is there all shot up, some not as bad as others, but beggars can't be choosers, i'm planning a trip to sennybridge ranges give me a nod if you'd like to come along.

 

all the best

 

eddy

[tartan-ninja]

Eddy, I'm down there in around July, if a see anything i'll get them posted...

[eddy8men]

hi jim

it would be great if you could get some pics on the forum, maybe a heads up on any locations as well.

 

all the best

 

eddy

[eddy8men]

had a thick attack and got my locations wrong on the sunken tanks, it's 2 centaurs not cromwells and 8 valentines off moray firth not solway firth, see the links below

 

centaurs

http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/article.asp?uan=5064

 

valentines

http://www.divemagazine.co.uk/news/article.asp?uan=707

 

anyone got a wetsuit

 

eddy

[steveo578]

There are some off the beach in Studand bay too, the Centaurs/Bulldozer story was in Tracklink as few issues past.

 

I suppose Valentines wouldn't be classified as ship wrecks so not covered by the Marine Archiology Act although the amount of grief the late Ken Small got when he found the Slapton M4A1 DD defies belief, however if you think Warcop is cold the Moray firth will be worse.

[ajmac]

I could well be interested Eddy....

Steve, what (if anything) WW2 is likely to still be at sennybridge?

[steveo578]

Don't know off hand,but most of the obvious areas have been well trawled over in the last decade or so - I think the valentines were taken by the larger collectors as were the bevy of Daimlers and the M40 SPG, but whether anything has been done with them is fairly unlikely. The Churchill Mk5 or Mk6 that was seen in many publications such as After the Battle and Mr Churchills tank was pulled down to an A/T range probably to replace the concreted Sherman V and Comet that were a feature of many squadies short range heavy weapon training back to the 1970s- if not earlier. The Churchill will have quickly sucumed to LAW 80.

 

I believe the Meteor may still be in place but is rather flat (its a WW2aircraft type but only just) but most of the nearbye gun lines are post war, probably Saracens, 432 and Stalwarts.

 

As to finding anything WW2 there may be still remenants around on isolated areas such as former shooting areas so a range map that show older disposition may be of help.

 

Steve

Edited May 2, 2010 by steveo578

[Big Al]

There are some off the beach in Studand bay too, the Centaurs/Bulldozer story was in Tracklink as few issues past.

 

I suppose Valentines wouldn't be classified as ship wrecks so not covered by the Marine Archiology Act although the amount of grief the late Ken Small got when he found the Slapton M4A1 DD defies belief, however if you think Warcop is cold the Moray firth will be worse.

I belive the Valentines off studland bay are classed as war grave.

Big Al

Edited May 3, 2010 by Big Al
spelling

[steveo578]

Big Al

I belive the Valentines off studland bay are classed as war grave.

 

 

 

You may be correct, I'm not aware of the circumstances of the loss, obviously if personel were lost during the exercise would classify the wreck as a War Grave and should in my opinion be respected as such.

 

It could be a moot point however as using precidence of the Marine Archaeology Act which is now the international standard only covers ship, boats etc which secifically does not cover other wrecks such as tanks or aircraft sea wrecks. However standard rights of salvage and the attitude of of HM Receiver of Wrecks will have a bearing on this matter.

 

I prevoiously mention the Slapton M4A1 DD which was the subject of unwarrented interference by H.M. Receiver of Wrecks and only a Deed of Ownership issued by the US Government surplus agency then in Germany resolved the matter -and only in that the Receiver decided not to proceed -had he done so the cost of legal proceedings would have wiped out any chance of Mr Small recovering the tank.

 

Steve

Edited May 3, 2010 by steveo578

[steveo578]

Hi guys,

Hate to say this as an ex Royal Engineer, but i remember in the 70,s going from newcastle to otterburne and readsdale ranges to colect the empty cases and link from the ranges to flog to the heavy metal guys as belts.

 

 

Very very naughty:nono::nono:

 

Distinctly remember shot up churchills lying around up thier, early ones as they had the square side hatches and rounded cast turrets. Some were only slightly perforated whilst others were absolutley hammerd.

 

 

I'll post some photos of the OTA Churchills on the "churchill thread" I don't want to confuse this thread.

 

Steve

[Bob Grundy]

I have found some more photos taken in the mid 1980's.

We all know this is a Ferret, chap on right is Peter Constantinos who has helped me with a lot

of my projects over the years