A.E.C. Militant MK 1 Gallery

[Richard Farrant]

But should you take it over the bank alongside the Dozer if it got stuck self recovery is a piece of pizz cos you would have the winch rope aleady out to the rear and a suitable anchor point, namely the RB. It would be no risk to get the Milly over the bank, because it is so easy to self-recover from there.

 

Mike,

 

It easy to debate all this after seeing a brief film clip, but a trained recovery mechanic would not put their equipment in that position. Indirect pulls are one of the set ups they are trained to do (in the army that is). Although the dozer went over the bank, its centre of gravity and stability on tracks was far greater than the AEC. From what I saw, with the RB tracks at right angles to the pull, the operation was spot on and I guess the dozer and AEC drove straight out without causing themselves or the ground any more damage.

[antarmike]

Okay, the army train to use an indirect pull if you have to beacuse you can't get into the ideal position, but if you can get in position with the winch fairleads facing directly to the recovery victim, that is far more sensible and to be preferred every time. Especially when positioning for an un-necessary indirect pull means you have to look over your left shoulder to see whats happening to the recovered crane, when you could be looking straight at it. And why un-neceassarilly increase the load on the anchor point and add frictional losses by adding blocks that don't need to be there?

 

And clearly if the Milly was positioned more or less exactly where it is in the video, but facing the other way this is entirely possible to achieve. Which is what I am suggesting in post #274, that still hasn't been properly answered.

Edited December 26, 2008 by antarmike

[Richard Farrant]

And clearly if the Milly was positioned more or less exactly where it is in the video, but facing the other way this is entirely possible to achieve. Which is what I am suggesting in post #274, that still hasn't been properly answered.

 

Mike,

I think that is the question you should put to the operator, why not post a message up on Youtube. I would think from hearing people in the background that it might have taken place in Norfolk or thereabouts.

[antarmike]

It was only meant as a passing comment. It just seemed to be adding a level of complexity to the set up that didn't need to be there. My philosophy with winched recovery is keep it simple. I had thought that they might have added the snatch block, and moved the Milly into an indirect position, because it got a bit more cable of the drum, and dropped the pull onto a lower layer, hence increasing the pull, but if that is the case, why not position where I suggest and merely add an extra return between the RB and the dozer, where it is adding useful extra pull?

[Ed Batchelor]

Hard to judge steepnesss of bank but it may have been an exercise in itself to get AEC over where the dozer was positioned. Only reason I can think of to set up like this was to ensure a perfectly straight pull as the cable run back and forth to the crawler is straight. Had AEC been pointing back to drag line and run back to crawler they would have to be positioned in a 'vee', crawler is parked in line with drag line as bank is parrallel to ditch. Can't think of any other reason but had he been feeling more energetic and hammered in his additional anchors and run the snatch block back to them, they could have done without dozer and positioned as per Antar mikes suggestion.

[specopcaptain]

The way the line is set up is to lessen the load put directly onto the recovery vehicle and its gear. The majority of the load is in a straight line between the CAT and the RB. Some of my team used a similar method to assist a stuck DROPS wagon while on deployment last year. By using a large piece of scrap metal as an anchor along with several snatch blocks on the line, it enabled a straight line pull on the winch lines whilst not overloading the 110's winch too much! They chained and chocked two 110's onto the back of the one with the winch but could have got away with one to help anchor it. By the time i got there the DROPS wagon was nearly out by a combination of using its rack to push it forwards, driving itself and winching. The reccy mechs weren't chuffed when they arrived a short while later to discover it had been recovered by us!!

[N.O.S.]

The reccy mechs weren't chuffed when they arrived a short while later to discover it had been recovered by us!!

 

Priceless story SPC, thanks for sharing! :-D

[croc]

I can't make out the rigging well enough to work it out properly but I would tend to agree with Antar mike that there is a wasted return, the only reason I can come up with is that the Milly has been positioned against the bank to get a better anchor.

[Degsy]

Perhaps the reason is to get a better angle of pull on the RB, especially with it having to be pulled sideways rather than the tracks turning.

[antarmike]

All the returns to the Dozer seem to be taken on a single chain!.

 

If the Milly was parked alonside the lines reeved between the RB and the Dozer, anchor end facing the RB, the last return could have been brought back to the Millies anchor, which is itself designed for this purpose. The rope run is then from the Millie, Directly to the RB, Round a pulley and to the Dozer, Round a pulley back to the RB, (and add as many rope lines between the Dozer and the RB as is appropriate) but when the last line comes round a pulley at the RB end it goes back to the Millie, not to the dozer, where it is attached to the Anchor.

 

This spreads the loading more evenly between two anchor points, takes strain of the single chain anchoring to the Dozer, and is generally safer, since the more you can spread the load onto different attachment point the better.

 

This would not be possible if the Millie was facing Cab onto the RB as in the Video, but would be possible if you turned it round.

Edited December 27, 2008 by antarmike
spile chucker not werking

[N.O.S.]

Soft old banks, them fenland drairns - drive you careful bor, even that that there 6 by 6, do Arthur, he'll hev ter come out wi' his ol' Standard Fordson an' Stanhay winch, an' pull th' ol' army truck out, an' most likely that there blade on clatterpiller tracks an' all! An' Arthur, he don't hev no truck with them there pulleys things neither....

 

He only live the other side o' the ditch, an' he'd a' had the job o' recuvverin' the navvy too, but he wanted ter pull the blasted thing strairght across the ditch ter save the 20 mile drive ter get ter the other bank....

 

But carry you all on, we're larnin a little as we go...!

[N.O.S.]

the only reason I can come up with is that the Milly has been positioned against the bank to get a better anchor.

 

Also, a quick go at the Risk Assessment for this job might yield another reason for not placing anything between the Dozer and dragline (just in case).

 

(clue - 60 ft...) :cool2:

[Richard Farrant]

he'll hev ter come out wi' his ol' Standard Fordson an' Stanhay winch,

 

 

Tony,

 

Now there is a name I did not expect to see on this forum.....Stanhay ! I used to work for them, well one of their companies, we were in the same yard as their factory, did my apprenticeship there. I bet old Arthur had Darvill wheel strakes made by Stanhays, on his old Fordson as well :-D

[Simon Daymond]

thought you might like to see a couple of the pics I took today, on the militant's first run out since painting etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

sorry if they're a bit dark, but it was getting on. I started off wearing a coat and a hat, within a couple of minutes the coat and hat had gone, I don't know whether it was due to the radiator I was sitting next to, or the sheer effort of having to lug the militant round corners.

On the downside, I think the handbrake is sticking on, after setting off from the lights, it seemed really slow (more than usual) and on checking the rear drums were much warmer than the rest. I think my week off might involve stripping the brakes down and cleaning up, anyone know any do's and don'ts to bear in mind? I have a book, but it's a tad vague.

[abn deuce]

Looks great !

[N.O.S.]

Looks very nice, Simon!

 

I'm not familiar with Militant detail, but if you cannot see an obvious problem with the handbrake linkage, it might be worth checking the brake system schematic to see if there is potential for a leaking air valve to give the same symptom.

 

When you know the brakes are dragging a little, you could crack the odd brake pipe union near the rear cylinders to check for air leakage past a valve. Good luck!

[Richard Farrant]

Simon,

 

Those Neate handbrakes have a tendency to not release the cable enough, due to the cable drum not being free enough. I would check that first, then do as N.O.S. says.

[Simon Daymond]

going into work now, and will let you know what I find.

 

Going to have a few cups of tea and mull it over before pulling everything to pieces. Come to think of it, it won't ever roll, if I remember back to when the air was playing up, i.e. there was none, I used to move the militant around the yard relying on the handbrake, however unless you were at speed, simply depressing the clutch and the militant would come to a pretty quick stop, which makes me think that perhaps the handbrake isn't realeasing properly? I'll jack it up and see which wheels spin or not.

[Richard Grosvenor]

Looks nice ! There's a few times I wish I hadn't sold mine :-(

 

With reference to the brakes, I had a similar problems with mine a couple of years ago after it had stood over the winter. In my case it was linkages on the service brakes that was the problem. After lots duck oil and hard work it all freed off lovely and plenty of regular greasing stopped it happening again.

 

Would jacking it up show the problem wheel? I'm sure mine had limited slip diffs.

 

 

Richard

[N.O.S.]

Also, a quick go at the Risk Assessment for this job might yield another reason for not placing anything between the Dozer and dragline (just in case).

 

(clue - 60 ft...) :cool2:

 

No, not the rope (there's enough of that to pull a submarine out). 2nd clue - one end is on the wrong bank......

[AndyFowler]

No, not the rope (there's enough of that to pull a submarine out). 2nd clue - one end is on the wrong bank......

Could the jib swinging around be the answer Tony !:-D

[antarmike]

Not with a bucket full of mud resting on the river bottom, hanging off the end of it, no , I can't see the jib as a problem...and nothing swings uphill...

And the RB driver is in the cab and the engine is running well before the RB centre pivot reaches vertical.........

Edited December 30, 2008 by antarmike

[antarmike]

I'm sure mine had limited slip diffs.

 

 

Richard

 

It would be the only one then!

[N.O.S.]

Could the jib swinging around be the answer Tony !:-D

 

A Scammell flag prize on its way Andy! (if I can find the artwork)

 

Yes, as soon as the jib is off the bank, any sudden movement of the carriage could cause the superstructure to swing (slowly at first but then very rapidly) around 180 deg., given the steep angle at which the machine is sitting. It is only a risk, but a very real one given the effect of the counterweight at that angle.

 

There is no evidence on the video before recovery begins that the bucket is stuck, or would remain stuck, or has anything in it at all, so no evidence that it would be enough to anchor the jib should it start to spin around. For all we know the dragline could have simply slipped down the bank while moving.

 

We have no idea if the dragline operator was able to engage the cab lock (locks the superstructure to the undercarriage to prevent rotation for tansport), nor if it was even in working order.

 

In fact I suggest it is not possible to glean enough information of the surroundings or the circumstances from the video to even begin to question the methods of the recovery operator.

 

Perhaps this is why it is impossible to answer your question Mike - surely all we can say is that "the BEST WAY is whatever way in which that particular experienced recovery operator chooses to do the job, having first assessed the situation on site."

 

It certainly looked a very professional job to my untrained eyes. I guess you had to be there, like Ernie (Arthur's mate).

[antarmike]

As you say, each to his own, it's not how I would have done it, but they did get it out without incident, and that is the main thing.