Petrol Engines Ban.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Just a thought but in 15 years time, or so they say all ' Diesel and Petrol engine ' vehicle's will be banned from our roads. My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale as I for one could most likely not afford the cost of transporting mine to shows and the price of these MV's could plummet as people try to get shot of them before the crunch day arrives. This could all be hysteria on my part but will be interesting to here the thoughts of fellow owners on the forum.      

[radiomike7]

We have 6 Scania 9litre CNG tractors on trial at work, the drivers don't like them and they are costly in maintenance as they need an oil change and expensive spark plugs every 5/6 weeks.  Until recently we had to drive them a round trip of 65 miles just to fill them up at the nearest gas station.

[mtskull]

It is incorrect to say that in 15 years all Diesel and Petrol engined vehicles will be banned from our roads. What is being proposed is a ban on the sale of new Diesel, Petrol and Hybrid vehicles. There is (as yet) no proposal for an outright ban on such vehicles.

[andym]

1 hour ago, mtskull said:

It is incorrect to say that in 15 years all Diesel and Petrol engined vehicles will be banned from our roads. What is being proposed is a ban on the sale of new Diesel, Petrol and Hybrid vehicles. There is (as yet) no proposal for an outright ban on such vehicles.

"Cars", I think, rather than "vehicles"?

Andy

[ruxy]

This is where the thread stems from  :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51366123

It is ref. to CARS   petrol,diesel & hybrid.

DERV is already being well hammered for particulates etc.  - that is a added issue.

To repeat - the point being , there is going to be a point say for argument 15 to 20 years hence , when the car fleet(s)  made today  is at scrap of life.   There may I suspect be another scrappage.  scheme at a earlier date.   At this time , let us just concern ourselves presently with petrol - there will hardly be a dispensing pump on a forecourt.   This for MV enthusiasts is going to be the issue.

[mtskull]

22 minutes ago, andym said:

"Cars", I think, rather than "vehicles"?

Andy

I stand corrected; cars and vans. I can’t find any reference to lorries, although there do appear to be plans to incentivise “green buses”.

[SimonBrown]

Well I suppose anyone with an L60 or K60 Multi Fuel (sic) engine might be on to something and more future proof than the rest of us?

I'll get my coat...

[Tony B]

2 hours ago, mtskull said:

I stand corrected; cars and vans. I can’t find any reference to lorries, although there do appear to be plans to incentivise “green buses”.

Trouble is ,  where will all the rare earths and virgin copper nessacary to make all the Green Buses come from? I'm driving a bus now with well over 760,000 km on it,  A Plaxton Bododed Volvo Low floor , known as a Pevil, 😀 I was driving them fifteen years ago when they were new.   If on my normal school run I carry an average load of 77 on an 83 capacity vehicle, consevitvly I'm replacing 35 individual car runs. So in the two trips thats 70 lesss car journeys. And!! The carbon cost of at least one new bus has been saved, and the recycling carbon cost, what is not mentioned  by the Gabbling Masses, Recycling produces carbon and other pollutants. So what is wrong with keeping older vehicles on the road? You save on the raw material of new vehicles, and cut down waste by using slavaged or recon parts.  Any way where are they going to get people to drive all these new services?

 

[ruxy]

I think most of the 'rare earths' for magnets etc.  that are exploitable presently are within China .   When the British & US moved out of Afghanistan  (gas pipelines from Ex- USSR to India were forgotten , the natives demanded excessive tolls)  , the Chinese moved in and now control the richest deposits of copper ore and in fact the largest mine in the world.   I think it is opencast , I read a few years ago that ancient human sites are just cleared away.

[Richard Farrant]

54 minutes ago, Tony B said:

 So what is wrong with keeping older vehicles on the road? You save on the raw material of new vehicles, and cut down waste by using slavaged or recon parts. 

 

Nothing new there, London Transport were completely rebuilding RT and Routemasters at Aldenham about 50 years ago. We did the same with army Bedford RL and MK lorries where I worked in the Seventies.

[Ashcollection]

20 hours ago, radiomike7 said:

We have 6 Scania 9litre CNG tractors on trial at work, the drivers don't like them and they are costly in maintenance as they need an oil change and expensive spark plugs every 5/6 weeks.  Until recently we had to drive them a round trip of 65 miles just to fill them up at the nearest gas station.

thats what trials are for, after a few versions they will love driving them, or at least not notice the difference

 

[Ashcollection]

11 hours ago, Tony B said:

Trouble is ,  where will all the rare earths and virgin copper nessacary to make all the Green Buses come from? I'm driving a bus now with well over 760,000 km on it,  A Plaxton Bododed Volvo Low floor , known as a Pevil, 😀 I was driving them fifteen years ago when they were new.   If on my normal school run I carry an average load of 77 on an 83 capacity vehicle, consevitvly I'm replacing 35 individual car runs. So in the two trips thats 70 lesss car journeys. And!! The carbon cost of at least one new bus has been saved, and the recycling carbon cost, what is not mentioned  by the Gabbling Masses, Recycling produces carbon and other pollutants. So what is wrong with keeping older vehicles on the road? You save on the raw material of new vehicles, and cut down waste by using slavaged or recon parts.  Any way where are they going to get people to drive all these new services?

 

yes. thats why Hydrogen fuel is a better option, you can fit a motor, smaller battery and fuel cell and tanks to anything

[radiomike7]

1 hour ago, Ashcollection said:

thats what trials are for, after a few versions they will love driving them, or at least not notice the difference

 

That's called letting the customer do your R&D.  The only current advantage is that they are a lot quieter than an equivalent diesel engine.

Edited February 12, 2020 by radiomike7

[Ashcollection]

2 minutes ago, radiomike7 said:

That's called letting the customer do your R&D.

yes the best way, "user trials" the user can find ways to break things the engineers would never have thought of!. been there haha. I designed a piece of kit once that was perfect in our eyes, all high tech bells and whistles etc, it came back split in half and scratched to buggery. What the user had done was in an emergency situation he rolled the unit over and used the top heat shield as a shovel. I never in my wildest dreams thought anyone would do that. so beefed it up, extended and curved the front edge of the shield and gave him duel use. then as expected they never came across that emergency situation ever again haha. 

[Tony B]

When I was at college a firm came up with an Unbreakable bit of Equipment! We had to work at it, took us an hour. 😂

Make something Fool Proof. The Human race eveolves a suprior fool.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Tony B

[Tony B]

15 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

Nothing new there, London Transport were completely rebuilding RT and Routemasters at Aldenham about 50 years ago. We did the same with army Bedford RL and MK lorries where I worked in the Seventies.

Yes but now manufactures have to sell the new widget evry month just to keep share holders and Early Adopters happy. 

[johann morris]

34 minutes ago, Tony B said:

Yes but now manufactures have to sell the new widget evry month just to keep share holders and Early Adopters happy. 

And thereby hangs the real problem, the greed of the money men.

Edited February 12, 2020 by johann morris

[mtskull]

22 hours ago, Tony B said:

So what is wrong with keeping older vehicles on the road? 

.

 

Very little. Which is why the 2035 ban is proposed to be on the sale of NEW petrol and Diesel powered cars and vans, not on the use of older vehicles

Edited February 12, 2020 by mtskull

[Ashcollection]

7 hours ago, Tony B said:

Yes but now manufactures have to sell the new widget evry month just to keep share holders and Early Adopters happy. 

thats a political issue about keeping the great unwashed masses in work and the pension schemes going to keep paying all the retired people.  not much to do with our hobby. 

[david1212]

Battery powered cars can meet the needs of the private market despite having to stop and wait for a recharge on long journeys so long as the charging infrastructure and generation capacity is in place.
I believe adequate infrastructure and charging points could be in place within 15 years followed by further expansion over the next 10 years if the investment is forthcoming. I am very doubtful though about adequate generation capacity for either electricity or hydrogen.

However can either battery or hydrogen power meet the needs of the military and emergency services as a replacement for diesel?
Battery has two fundamental issues
- how to charge in the middle of nowhere, having a diesel or hydrogen driven generator is pointless.
- the time to charge.

Hydrogen can be transported but the volume is greater but at least for the military there is the safety issue .... any strike and bang !
Further it is only greener if it the production is significantly more environmentally friendly than diesel.

Hence I see a limited demand for diesel way beyond even 2050 just like for coal today.
The initial extraction and refinement both rely on high volumes to justify the plant costs plus a demand for all the components of refining. If by 2050 petrol cars are out of everyday use there will be no demand for the petrol beyound hobby / histroric use.

Given now the majority of petrol and diesel bought by the general public is at supermarkets actually buying available fuel is a potential issue. The supermarkets will close their fillings points as too low a return. Will even one of the current filling station and convenience store sites in medium and large towns still be viable. It could actually be some rural sites that turn out to be more viable due to local demand because battery or hydrogen power is less suitable for commercial requirements.

Hence the current commercial and military needs may well ensure supplies are available albeit at a high price. Unlikely but the overall price could of course be reduced by a big cut in duty and tax.

[ruxy]

I don't see that charging away from base radius will be a problem.   Many people are going to get a rapid charging point pedestal next to their front drive.

Just like some people rent out their drive for regular parking during daytime, people will order them for use with any card, you will just drive on a strangers drive , use your card , charge-up and go.

[Richard Farrant]

1 hour ago, ruxy said:

 

Just like some people rent out their drive for regular parking during daytime, people will order them for use with any card, you will just drive on a strangers drive , use your card , charge-up and go.

I can see big issues there, you come home to park your car and someone is sitting on your drive charging theirs, very likely yellow lines outside home, so you find somewhere to park, walk home and someone else is now charging their vehicle. Not well thought out, probably from the same person who dreamed up the "Smart Motorway" idea ......

[ferretfixer]

7 hours ago, Richard Farrant said:

I can see big issues there, you come home to park your car and someone is sitting on your drive charging theirs, very likely yellow lines outside home, so you find somewhere to park, walk home and someone else is now charging their vehicle. Not well thought out, probably from the same person who dreamed up the "Smart Motorway" idea ......

Would be even worse to find a van there. & they are filling it up with the valuables they have Burgled from your Home!.....😆