Petrol Engines Ban.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Just a thought but in 15 years time, or so they say all ' Diesel and Petrol engine ' vehicle's will be banned from our roads. My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale as I for one could most likely not afford the cost of transporting mine to shows and the price of these MV's could plummet as people try to get shot of them before the crunch day arrives. This could all be hysteria on my part but will be interesting to here the thoughts of fellow owners on the forum.      

[Surveyor]

Reading the BBC its new cars not exisitng

[hardtop969]

I think all the time there is a tax on petrol and diesel, we'll be able to carry on using them. Provided there is money to be made from something, it will keep going until it, the money, or the demand runs out.

[Ashcollection]

Yes its a ban on production of new petrol and diesel cars, and I have no problem with that, the thing that might affect many people is towns and cities banning or taxing them off the roads in certain areas, in principle again a good idea. What will hurt us long term is the reduction in the availability of fuel and its predictable massive increase in price. in our hobby we also need to be thinking of alternatives to fossil fuels, there's bio diesel and bio ethanol, it just needs a few tweak's to suit our old pumps and carbs, or we need to look at new seals and modifying our engines. We need to start thinking about being proactive before we become seen as part of the problem, bearing in mind a lot of people think we are odd before we start. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Ashcollection

[ruxy]

At some stage the demand for DERV and petrol will drop, the distance between pumps will increase.   I can't see much scope for diesel engine fumigation , for petrol engines - I think the propane conversion kit quality will improve , and that will be the way for a while.   By then Parliament will ban diesel tractors , then plant , diesel & gas fork list trucks.   No doubt CalMac will be showing the way with their new ferries  LoL

Essentially  -  think of the  5% promise for  leaded 4 star , also LRP fiasco and you will not be far away.   For the masses , it will be a leased battery electric car for those who can afford a second mortgage, the rest will be public transport or pedal pushing..

The batteries (size of football pitch) being built now for wind turbines has sealed it, they just need the charging facilities (faster) that will not be so easy unless they make a quantum with the batteries.  I did not expect the huge storage batteries now fact, so all else is not impossible soon. Very soon,,

[johann morris]

I wish someone could explain the logistics of electric cars for me, someone that actually lives in the real world and has thought of and solved the huge problems ahead.

 

The real answer is hydrogen but why no one will admit it is beyond me.

Edited February 6, 2020 by johann morris

[SirLanceUK]

I was reading articles about this another issue that needs to be overcome is the power needed to drive heavier vehicles like buses. Batteries at the moment cant push a loaded bus up hill so the current answer is Hybrid.

So will the same be true for HGV's... My point is that Diesel is still going to be needed..

Petrol for me might be harder, but I will be 85 so might be letting others drive me round and letting them worry about it

[ruxy]

It is more or less ordained that  LNG is to be used to power heavy lorries (bio/LNG being the best with zero emissions), buses & ships - because it is here (won over alternatives , until the next best comes).

Likewise with cars , there are now some very good cars - such as the electric  VW Golf ,  battery technology has advanced very fast these last few years, + the benefits of regenerative braking.

The petrol and diesel cars purchased new tomorrow - most will be scrapped by time 15 years has expired.   Liquid fuel pumps at motorway service areas & supermarkets will start to go in 10 years time, most have already gone in the countryside.

Diesel cars will be powered with fuel from the micro bio. type cottage industry and DIY that already exists.  

If you put aside the US Oil Industry and Rockefeller's  'seven sisters'   ,   the main early industry was Samuel (what became Shell Transport & Trading)  out of Baku (Russia) ,  Kerosene for the far east - ships safe registered for the Suez Canal, then there was no market for petrol - it was a total PITA.   Early refining at Baku, Poland - then the part known as Galacia (Austro/Hung.)  and Roumania was unbelievably primitive,  like a redundant locomotive boiler , the possibility of a DIY cottage industry today for petrol & kero is impossible even if you could get shot of the rest from the base-stock.  Fortunately propane is a safe bet for petrol engines ,  unless the politicians wreck the bottled propane industry.

I think the MV, car, transport + tractor type summer events are going to be killed off over the next 20-25 years, you will be left with steam until the parliamentarians decree coal sales are illegal.

Smart Motorways to prevent overcrowding on the cheap will become a thing of the past, the proletariat motorists are to be  £ priced off the roads..

Edited February 6, 2020 by ruxy
spelin

[Ashcollection]

there will always be a solution, bit it will cost us more, I've got over 70 pieces of kit in my collection and I'm well aware of the fact that some I will never drive, and they will go down in value. but thats not why I do it. I'm into green tech. I studied it in the mid 90's. Yes bio diesel as a cottage industry will cover us for diesel, but it will be regulated and have to be carbon offset I'd guess. but I have no problem with that, LNG will be used for a long time to come as its safer for the environment to burn it than let into the atmosphere. As for electric, I agree that we should be using the excess electricity in the grid to make hydrogen and push fuel cell tech in cars rather than full electric. The lithium should be used for household power cells and solar on new houses compulsory. And with the new battery tech that should be on the market in the next few years the problems should solve themselves, as long as the big boys and vested interests in oil and lithium don't F'k it up. long term my petrol lorries can be converted to diesel and run bio, my smaller petrol vehicles can be LNG or some can convert to electric. We spent thousands and years restoring these old beauties (in our eyes) whats a bit more cash and a another year at the end of the day. no worries. Don't fear change, embrace it, enjoy it and make money out of it.

[johann morris]

10 hours ago, ruxy said:

The petrol and diesel cars purchased new tomorrow - most will be scrapped by time 15 years has expired.   Liquid fuel pumps at motorway service areas & supermarkets will start to go in 10 years time, most have already gone in the countryside.

I don't know where you are in the world but here in Wales every petrol station still sells liquid fuel and I can't think of one that has stopped in the 30 years that I have lived here.

One of my wife's friends lectures at uni on such issues and when I have conversations with her, she is totally unable to explain how, it really frustrates her that unlike her students I will not accept the " it's something that they will have to work out" answer. What car dose she drive, a diesel and why, because the distance that she has to travel an ev would not be appropriate. There are so many questions that have to be answered, so many problems that have to be solved and the easiest of those is who is going to pay, bend over we are just about to be shafted.

[johann morris]

11 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

worries. Don't fear change, embrace it, enjoy it and make money out of it.

I don't fear the future it fascinates me. There are so many fantastic ideas but no real explanations about how and at what cost.

I live in an area that they would ideally like to cover in wind turbines, the farmers love the idea, subsidies, but the rest of the locals are less than convinced. I only have to look out to the horizon on many days of the year to see the majority of them still for one reason or another, not enough wind or too much. How can the companies who erect them make money, subsidies and they admit it. When they wanted to erect several hundred on moors above us the locals arranged a protest group, at the first meeting the company responsible sent a representative who, at first, was very helpful but soon gave over to couldn't care less what we thought. When I asked how they made their money he said not out of generating electricity but from the subsidies.  

A report was published recently that listed all the large generating proposals currently being considered, the large proportion would increase the electricity cost per unit by 5 times the current cost. If it ever does become reality it's going to be expensive so like the bloke with a Tesla buy a generator now.

[Ashcollection]

Same here Ruxy, east of England all the village stations went years ago, the mid placed ones and lots of the town ones are now "hand car wash establishments" you just have the super markets in towns and the big boys on the A roads. Wales must be lucky, like being here in the 1970's but more hills. and I agree Johann Morris. lots has to be sorted out, and right now electric does not suit many people. I have an electric car but my vans are all diesel and I have a bigger diesel estate car as well, it's horses for courses. but if you had grabbed the government grant for solar and had a load  fitted at yours, then bought a tesla which has a good a mileage as any diesel, taken the time to spread the word so that tesla sold more cars then they gave you a free power wall, that would run you house all night and re-charge you car, than you'd find you hadn't been bent over and shafted, but you'd have saved thousands over time, but if you do nothing until you are forced to you will feel shafted. 

you got a Steyr 1500a? lucky man.

[Ashcollection]

yes there is a big problem with the subsidy system at the moment, the government don't understand business and the greed factor at all! only got to look at the grants for first time house buyers and the massive profits that permission homes made for building shit houses! big business has different driving factors to most of us! lots of turbines get turned off as the rate they get paid for the electricity goes up and down, due to demand as well, thats why I like hydrogen. all the excess electricity could be used in hydrogen production, then you can just go to a filling station and run you "electric" car on hydrogen, fill time no different than filling with diesel, and still get your 4-500miles per tank.

 

[Pete Ashby]

Odd this thread should have started to pick up as only last weekend we had lunch with someone who owns a Tesla and is highly committed and invested in green energy here in west Wales a place where diesel pick ups and tractors are more your everyday mode of transport.

  It was an interesting conversation and confirmed many of my suspicions about the logistical issues of owning an electric car although the owner suggested that it was not an issue providing some 'pre-planning of route and charging locations' was carried out before hand,  I have to say I was not overly convinced by the argument. 

  This lead me to carry out a few back of the envelope calculations that evening in terms of the power draw on the grid assuming 50% of the 35 million odd cars currently on the road plugged in to charge at 1800hrs every night it takes no account of HGV's or buses that would take significantly more power, it was a scary big number of KWhrs . 

Following on from this when we did our weekly shop at the 'big town' (well big for us here) I made a point of sitting and counting the number of vehicles in a ten minute period that went through the fuel pumps at the supermarket and an estimation of how long each one stayed on the pump, ...yes  I know   but I learnt on Sunday it's takes around 30min for a 50% charge so making the assumption that each vehicle I counted would also be there charging batteries I couldn't see how the logistics stacked up just in physical space to take that many cars over a 30 minute period. 

So the upshot of this is I think there are a  lot of sound bites about at the moment coming from both the ardent Green energy quarter who on occasion let their passion blind them to the practical issues involved and politicians who see it as a current bandstand and won't be in power to see their proposals implemented. 

In conclusion to echo some of the comments on my old school reports "good idea not enough thought in the application"

Pete

[Mk3iain]

I  have doubts over the long term use/life of battery cars. Upfront cost are reducing but what happens later when the battery is done and the manufacturer will not support it. I suspect the cars will get manufacturers support for a given number of years and then take them back for recycling.  No older cars for those that can't afford newish ones !

Just consider the nice Tesla (or any battery car) full of lithium batteries in the built-in garage under your bedroom maybe. The batteries overheat and catch fire, the car burns like a firework and takes the house with it, rapidly.

You will not put out a battery fire with anything you have at home even if you are right next to it or even in it.

Then how easy will they be to insure....

 

I also believe in various uses of Hydrogen. Many remote locations including islands are ideal for wind or sea generation but cannot export the electricity. They could produce hydrogen and ship it in hydrogen powered ships..

 

Early days.

 

Iain

[Ashcollection]

its seems we all prefer the use of hydrogen over full electric. there is still time for that to happen. fuel cells are getting better as well as batteries, they just aren't getting the press they deserve. 

[Mk3iain]

5 minutes ago, Ashcollection said:

its seems we all prefer the use of hydrogen over full electric. there is still time for that to happen. fuel cells are getting better as well as batteries, they just aren't getting the press they deserve. 

Doesn't have to be fuel cells, could be burned in converted engines !  Still pushes out water as a by-product.

There are green fuels for diesel and petrol engines, if we (more likely our government) want to do it...

[Pete Ashby]

Hydrogen is without doubt the answer there is a limitless supply all around us and it is a truly renewable energy source,  burn it in air and it produces water plus perhaps a few compounds of Nitrogen and some pollutants from the lubrication system of course.

The key is getting the whole highly explosive mass safely contained in a fuel cell that will not breach in an accident it should not be that hard to do I would suggest and would have the added bonus of not having to relay on other countries fora  primary energy source in the form of Li.  

Pete

[Ashcollection]

no it doesn't have to be fuel cells tech, running a conventional engine of pure hydrogen would bring a whole new load of issues though. as I mentioned earlier Bio fuels will cover out diesel engines.

 

[Ashcollection]

7 minutes ago, Pete Ashby said:

Hydrogen is without doubt the answer there is a limitless supply all around us and it is a truly renewable energy source,  burn it in air and it produces water plus perhaps a few compounds of Nitrogen and some pollutants from the lubrication system of course.

The key is getting the whole highly explosive mass safely contained in a fuel cell that will not breach in an accident it should not be that hard to do I would suggest and would have the added bonus of not having to relay on other countries fora  primary energy source in the form of Li.  

Pete

Exactly. we can make it here in the uk and it's limitless. I'd happily have a big fuel cell generator to run my machine shop, (not a hobby shop) I mean a proper one. we currently have 50kw of solar and 20kw of wind and I still spend £15-20k a year on electricity. the fuel containers for vehicles for hydrogen have been tested, burnt, dropped, run over impacted and its all good. The biggest problem to over come in everyday use is people being idiots. but maybe we let Darwin take over there haha.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Ashcollection

[Mk3iain]

There are technical issues and challenges with all the options and all are evolving.  Its all down too where the research money goes and what is driven by government.

None should be dismissed as perhaps the future is a mix of all.

 

Iain

[Ashcollection]

1 minute ago, Mk3iain said:

There are technical issues and challenges with all the options and all are evolving.  Its all down too where the research money goes and what is driven by government.

None should be dismissed as perhaps the future is a mix of all.

 

Iain

Yes and evolving fast. trouble is everyone is hung up on electric. bit like a few years back the government pushed Diesel to reduce Co2 emissions totally forgetting about all the other stuff in diesel. The future will defiantly be a mix, as things will become more localised. 8-10 years ago round me all we had was the national grid. now we ourselves have 70KW generation, there are 4 large digesters within 10 miles, about 150 acres of solar and 2 straw/chicken shit power stations. and god know how many Mw off the coast 40 miles away. all we need are 100 odd medium size bio diesel plants, farmers co-ops could do that, and a couple of dozen hydrogen big plants round the coast. job done. 

[Ashcollection]

minor point. energy saving will play a big role too. just did a quick calc. over the last 3 years we have replaced all the strip light bulbs in the factory with led ones as the old ones went wrong. that saves me 4.2kw/h on a 12 hour day so 50.5kw. thats enough to fully recharge my electric car. and yes the led ones do last longer so far the 3 year old ones are still good. never had a standard one last that long in a machine shop before.

 

[Mk3iain]

LED lights are truly revolutionary, I think the folk that developed the (possibly) blue LED enabling white, light won a Nobel prize for it!

If I had loads of money (owner of Ineos style), I would set up an infrastructure to collect hydrogen from remote places and bring to locations were it is needed. Using modular systems to produce the gas and liquify it ready for transport. Small coasters able to hook up at coastal and island areas, running on the gas themselves.  All it needs is cash. Government driven maybe.

Alas I don't have money....

Bugger

 

Maybe if we all chip in   (HMVF power Ltd !)

Edited February 7, 2020 by Mk3iain

[Pete Ashby]

Having just re read this thread I'm aware that I have gone off on something of a tangent from the original question posed by DFC1943Fl Lt which was as follows:

 My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles. Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public. Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere. Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale 

Fair question and one that is more complex to answer than at first glance.   I think having thought about it a bit I'll give my perspective bearing in mind it is from observations and information available at this point in time,  as others have noted the situation is now moving faster than anticipated.

So to break your question down into digestible chunks :

My question is what will happen to all our military vehicles?, I'm not sure,  it is wholly dependent on the individuals motivation for owning them I suspect.  People come in all shapes and sizes and so too are the reasons for owning and collecting MV's,  is it  a social thing?  is it the historical aspect?  could it be a family connection?  or is it just for the pleasure of driving them or for the majority I suspect  a combination of all those factors. So it will depend on the individuals primary motivation as to whether they sell up at a knock down price  and move onto to something new or stick with it.

Will this mean the end of our rallies to shows and the enjoyment of showing them off to the general public? Will there be a concession brought in to allow us to still drive the MV's on the road. .  The point to bear in mind here is this impacts on all forms of classic and vintage road  transport that uses the internal combustion engine it's not just us in the MV world it's the rows of shiny cars, vintage tractors, classic commercials and the motor bikes.  Taken at face value the answer would have to be... 'yes that's it boys pack up and go home'.....  but I think the movement as a whole is large enough to warrant small scale commercial interest in supplying fuel  although for various reasons not necessarily in it's current form.  Vintage transport shows still seem as popular with the ice cream licking public as ever they were so I would hope any Government would  not take the unpopular step of turning it's back on this countries motoring history, although we live in strange times politically and perhaps the public would just slump onto the sofa and reach for the game boy or mobile phone instead. 

Will we have to transport the vehicles everywhere? That predisposes that you have an electric transport vehicle able to carry them which currently (pun not intended ) does not exist.

If not, there will be an awful lot of military vehicles for sale , Yes and no,  back really to my point at the top of this answer to you where I pose the question about the individuals motivation.  Some will sell and move on others will convert to other forms of fuel and still others will shut the doors on their workshops and go in occasionally to sit in their beloved vehicle and smell the smells of canvas, oil  and rubber and dream of the good old days.  Will it impact the market values?  probably I think is the answer to that one,  does it matter? I suppose it does if your motivation is just to keep it as an appreciating asset.

So there you go that's my take after 47 years of collecting and restoring MV's for what it's worth.  A good thought provoking question that will effect younger collectors significantly and to which I don't think there are any definite answers currently, which neatly ties in with some of the other discussion I and several others have had at the expense of your original question. 

Pete

 

. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Pete Ashby
missing letter

[Mk3iain]

Oops, yes back to the original question.

We are looking at 20 years or so before all new manufacture of petrol and diesel engine cars is banned.

(This may change as diesel for one is now cleaner than ever, and if you note some research current standard diesel engines leave the air cleaner. Early days on that research but interesting.)

By then there will still be millions of cars and light vehicles using those fuels. It will take a long time for the market to deplete, fossil fuels will be with us for a long time yet.

I would think we are looking at 30 years plus before we have to worry and alternatives are already around now.

Subject to change of course, we are reliant on the whim of government and the power of lobbyists.

 

Iain